Topic: Jo 5:24-29 implies 2 ways to God's Grace: election & works (Read 512 times)

Alfred Persson · « **on:** January 25, 2012, 12:16:59 PM »

There are two access points to God's Grace:
1)via election (Eph 1:4ff; 2:7ff; Rom 8:28ff)
2)via a judgment according to works (John 5:28f; Mat 25:33-40; Rom. 2:6-11; Rev 20:11-15).

5 ...the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness-- indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God. (Rom 2:5-11 NKJ)

We see both access points to God's Mercy in John 5:24-29. The church (elect) saved by grace not works---have passed over from death into life in verse 24 "and shall not come into judgment"; therefore verses 28-29 are NOT about the church, they are about the intermediate and wicked, who are judged according to their works.

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
(Joh 5:24-29 NKJ)

The judgment according to works is a "low bar" the non elect hurdle to indicate they love light, not darkness...so even if they are ignorant of Christ's relationship to light (cp Mat 25:34-40; John 3:19-21), God can then save them by undeserved grace just as He did the elect, and therefore God is innocent of the charge of partiality. All are saved by the same undeserved grace, the same vigorous action that saved the elect, was also expended to save the non elect, if they did the equivalent of those who believed in Christ...acted in such a manner as to indicate love of light.

In other words, the NT organizes humanity under three categories, the righteous, the unrighteous and the intermediate or middling. They are average sinners of uncertain loyalty. Generally speaking, these three classes were carried forward into the NT from the Judaism of the time. Paul's instructor (Ac 22:3) Gamaliel presided over the school or "Beth" Shammai around 30 A.D. our LORD Jesus while counseling a scribe called some oral tradition relevant "treasure":

52 Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Mat 13:52 NKJ)

The House of Shammai say, "[There will be] three groups on the Day of Judgment [when the dead will rise]: one comprised of the thoroughly righteous, one comprised of the thoroughly wicked, and one of middling [people].
[C] "The thoroughly righteous immediately are inscribed and sealed for eternal life.
[D] "The thoroughly wicked immediately are inscribed and sealed for Gehenna,
[E] "as it is written [Dan. 12:2]: ‘And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to eternal life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.'
[F] "Middling [people] go down to Gehenna [17a], scream [in prayer], and rise [again],
[G] "as it is written [Zech. 13:9]: ‘And I will put this third into the fire and refine them as one refines silver and test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name, and I will answer them.'
[H] "And, concerning this group, Hannah said [1 Sam. 2:6]: ‘The Lord kills and brings to life. He brings down to Sheol and raises up.' "- Neusner, Jacob: The Babylonian Talmud: A Translation and Commentary. Peabody, MA : Hendrickson Publishers, 2011, S. 6

This existence of the intermediate group saved by grace via works destroys the logical corollary where unconditional election to life for some results in the non-elect receiving positive or negative reprobation, BECAUSE then that is a false dilemma; It does not follow those not selected unto life then must die, for there is a way to God's Grace via a judgment of works.

In other words, the three groups manifest in John 5:24, 28-29 show there are two ways to God's Grace by which men are saved:

The church (elect) saved by grace, not works, pass over from death into life in verse 24 "and shall not come into judgment", therefore verses 28-29 are NOT about the church, they are about the intermediate and wicked, who are judged according to their works.

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.(Joh 5:24-29 NKJ)

Works save no one. If a person's works indicate love light not darkness; then God can save them by grace, write their names in the book of life because God is merciful, not because their works merited it:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.(Rev 20:11-15 NKJ)

The church is not being judged in Rev 20:11-15, its a resurrection of the dead who failed to believe in this life. The church was already raised up in the first resurrection/rapture long ago (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; John 5:24; Mat 24:29-31; Rev 14:14-16 and served with Christ in His Kingdom as kings and priests. This is a judgment (1000 years later) according to works as it plainly says, and if their works prove they love light, God saves them by grace.

That is why the book of life is open, to see if their names should be added to those "written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world." (Rev 17:8 NKJ) Names can be added (Mal 3;16-18) or deleted (Rev 3:5-6) from the book of life.

Because apart from incarnate God the Eternal Son---Jesus Christ, who analogically sold all He owned as infinite God in Heaven to serve the Father (Phil 2:6ff), no human can do enough works to merit God's kingdom, therefore all are saved by grace.

WHAT is the practical effect of all this?

Billions now living may never die; and there is hope the vast majority of dead humankind will rise up into life, only the Devil's children and those who sinned eternally in this life, will be eternally punished.

31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Mat 12:31-32 NKJ)

Billions will be saved:

5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. (Gen 15:5-6 NKJ)

Behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations… saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!... "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.[/b] (Rev 7:9-14 NKJ)

Chronologically speaking, the "Great Tribulation" is a short period of time (Dan 12:1 lxx; Mat 24:15-31; Mar 13:14-27), if we cannot number these how much less can be number all the saved from every generation of mankind?

Alfred Persson · « **Reply #1 on:** January 27, 2012, 04:33:37 PM »

Various texts teaching rescue from Hades:

55 I called on Your name, O LORD, From the lowest pit.
56 You have heard my voice: "Do not hide Your ear From my sighing, from my cry for help."
57 You drew near on the day I called on You, And said, "Do not fear!"
58 O Lord, You have pleaded the case for my soul; You have redeemed my life.
(Lam 3:55-58 NKJ)
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5 `When the waves of death surrounded me, The floods of ungodliness made me afraid.
6 The sorrows of Sheol surrounded me; The snares of death confronted me.
7 In my distress I called upon the LORD, And cried out to my God; He heard my voice from His temple, And my cry entered His ears.
8 "Then the earth shook and trembled; The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken, Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils, And devouring fire from His mouth; Coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down With darkness under His feet.
11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew; And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness canopies around Him, Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13 From the brightness before Him Coals of fire were kindled.
14 "The LORD thundered from heaven, And the Most High uttered His voice.
15 He sent out arrows and scattered them; Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.
16 Then the channels of the sea were seen, The foundations of the world were uncovered, At the rebuke of the LORD, At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.
17 "He sent from above, He took me, He drew me out of many waters.
18 He delivered me from my strong enemy, From those who hated me; For they were too strong for me. (2Sa 22:5-18 NKJ)

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"Oh that You would hide me in Sheol, That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You, That You would set a limit for me and remember me! (Job 14:13 NAU)

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But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me. Selah. (Psa 49:15 NAU)

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For great is Your mercy toward me, And You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol. (Psa 86:13 NKJ)

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3 The pains of death surrounded me, And the pangs of Sheol laid hold of me; I found trouble and sorrow.
4 Then I called upon the name of the LORD: "O LORD, I implore You, deliver my soul!"
5 Gracious is the LORD, and righteous; Yes, our God is merciful.
6 The LORD preserves the simple; I was brought low, and He saved me. (Psa 116:3-6 NKJ)
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From the hand of Sheol I do ransom them, From death I redeem them, Where is thy plague, O death? Where thy destruction, O Sheol? Repentance is hid from Mine eyes. (Hos 13:14 YLT)

That alludes to the resurrection (in John 5:28f; Rev 20:11-15) from Death and Hades which then suffer the "the second death (separation from God) from which there is no resurrection (return), Repentance is hid from Mine eyes.

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:13-15 NKJ)

As vs 15 is parenthetical applying to the entire event, and the book of life is opened, it implies some were found written in the book of life.

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Christ's propitiation (1 John 2:2) covers those in Sheol:

9 "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, Lowly and riding on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey.
10 I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim And the horse from Jerusalem; The battle bow shall be cut off. He shall speak peace to the nations; His dominion shall be`from sea to sea, And from the River to the ends of the earth.'
11 "As for you also, Because of the blood of your covenant, I will set your prisoners free from the waterless pit. (Zec 9:9-11 NKJ) (cf. Lu 16:24)

In context this relevant to Christ:
Mat 21:5 "Tell the daughter of Zion, `Behold, your King is coming to you, Lowly, and sitting on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey. "

Prophetic telescoping removes the valley between the first and second advent of our LORD Jesus, clearly the "blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many" (Mar 14:24 NKJ) is the propitiation covering (1 John 2:2) that allows captivity be led captive (Eph 4:8) and gifts be given to men, i.e., the gifts of life.

The Hebrew word "pit" is used referring to Sheol Hades:

Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit. (Isa 14:15 NKJ)

The lack of "water" in Sheol is present in Jesus' teachings:

"Then he cried and said,`Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' (Luk 16:24 NKJ)

That Christ died for those who repent in hades is clearly taught by this verse.

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If rescue from Sheol was unknown, Job wouldn't have seen the analogy to his situation:

And he said: "I cried out to the LORD because of my affliction, And He answered me. "Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice. (Jon 2:2 NKJ)

25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Joh 5:25-29 NKJ)

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7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)- (Eph 4:7-10 KJV)

Compare:
5 For the waves of Death compassed me. The floods of Belial assailed me.
6 The cords of Sheol surrounded me; the snares of Death confronted me.
7 In my distress I called upon the LORD, yea, I called unto my God; and out of His temple He heard my voice, and my cry did enter into His ears.
8 Then the earth did shake and quake, the foundations of heaven did tremble; they were shaken, because He was wroth.
9 Smoke arose up in His nostrils, and fire out of His mouth did devour; coals flamed forth from Him.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and thick darkness was under His feet.
(2Sam 22:5-10 JPS)

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Christ leaving this realm and to preach to repentant spirits in prison is a like figure to how His preaching now saves us, because we both gave the answer of a good conscience toward God and that saved us, by the resurrection of Christ:

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. (1Pe 3:18-22 KJV)

There is no like figure to us if Christ preached doom, hence the text explicitly teaches repentance in Sheol.

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For this cause the gospel was preached to spiritually dead mockers who speak evil of believers, that they be judged worthy of Hades for living according to men in the flesh, but once there recall the preaching and repent, and live according to God in the spirit:

4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1Pe 4:4-6 NKJ)

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A sinning church goer's spirit is saved after physical death, in the day of the Lord Jesus:

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 KJV)

["May be saved" perhaps implies Paul doubted he would repent.]

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The Parable of the Rich man and Lazarus is consistent with this view. The "rich man" in Hades wasn't eternally lost, he could still see the light of God, therefore he wasn't in the section of hell reserved for the eternally dammed, they wait for judgment Day in darkness: "cast into outer darkness" ; "cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment"; "He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day"; "for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever"; " I am counted with those who go down to the pit…the lowest pit, In darkness, in the depths." (Matthew 8:12; 22:13; 25:30; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6, 13; Psalm 88:4-6).

He is twice identified as a child of Abraham---by his crying out to "father Abraham" and Abraham's responding tenderly "child". (Luke 16:24-25)

Moreover, in scripture the righteous do not rebel against God's decree and aid His enemies, but those with Abraham wanted to cross over into Hell itself to help Dives (Luke 16:26).

Furthermore Dives displays godly concern for others (Luke 16: 27-28), which is uncharacteristic of children of the Devil.

Add to all this Hades is Temporary (Revelation 20:14) and we realize it is "the intermediate place" the dead await their day before the Judge, to learn what their final sentence will be.

Alfred Persson · « **Reply #2 on:** February 02, 2012, 01:54:14 PM »

There is a judgment according to works in Mat 25:33-40, where works that prove one has unknowingly received Christ also saves.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
(Mat 25:31-40 NKJ)

Clearly this is a third group judged according to works…according to their own conscience:

14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. (Rom 2:14-16 NKJ)

2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)

So its not "us only" Christ died for, His sacrifice allows God hear the cases of those who died without Christ, but had proved by their works they didn't hate the light. They just didn't know Christ before they died. These acted well according to their conscience which now excuses them for sins done in ignorance of God's law.

Same here, Judgment Day happens a thousand years after the church has been reigning with Christ as Kings and priests in His kingdom, therefore "the dead" who rise up from Hades are NOT the church:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. (Rev 20:11-13 NKJ)

Yet the book of life is opened indicating some of these would be written into it, after passing the judgment according to their works.

Had these believed in Christ while alive they would have been raptured or resurrected a 1000 years earlier at Christ's second coming (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; Mat 24:29-31; Rev 14:14-16) their salvation wouldn't be in question (John 5:24) now.

But they didn't, they died not believing in Christ therefore they are "the dead" in Hades and Death. AND these are judged just BEFORE they are raised to determine what sort of resurrection body they will be raised in, glorious or abhorrent. (Daniel 12:2-3; Isaiah 66:25; John 5:28-29)

They are the third group, the "intermediate" being neither the elect or the wicked, they are the "average sinners" who, if they prove they would have received Christ into their homes if only they knew He was in need (Mat 25:33-40), are saved by God's grace, because THE propitiation of Christ isn't for "us only", its also for them.
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
(Joh 5:28-29 NKJ)

Author Topic: Jo 5:24-29 implies 2 ways to God's Grace: election & works (Read 512 times)

Alfred Persson

Jo 5:24-29 implies 2 ways to God's Grace: election & works

Alfred Persson

Re: Jo 5:24-29 implies 2 ways to God's Grace: election & works

Alfred Persson

Re: Jo 5:24-29 implies 2 ways to God's Grace: election & works