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Copernicus

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Roots of Barack Obama's Christian Faith
« on: July 13, 2008, 12:36:42 PM »
For those interested in an in-depth article on Barack Obama's Christian faith, how he came to it, his past association with Islam, his relationship with Wright, etc., this Newsweek article, Finding His Faith, is a good source.  As an atheist, it makes me nervous when a politician wears his religion on his sleeve.  Obama is one of the few that doesn't grate on me, and that is partly because he seems to believe that laws need to make sense to atheists as well as Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists. 
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JustLiz

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Re: Roots of Barack Obama's Christian Faith
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2008, 11:49:36 AM »
Thank you for linking to that article.  It sounds like Obama is one who gets it.  My brother - an atheist and a Republican - explained to me that, while he supports Bush's policies, personally Bush offends him.  He said that if the president were a Satan worshipper and closed his speaches with "May Satan bless you," the entire nation would be up in arms about it but Bush saying "God bless you" is acceptable.  I never really thought about it that way before then.  I don't know if Obama makes "God bless you" part of his speeches or not, but at least Obama respects all people - he gets it.

Personally, I have ticked off more than one friend because I reply to their stupid and offensive "70% of Americans are Christians.  If the rest are offended by "Under God" in the Pledge, they can leave" emails by sometimes gently sometimes not pointing out that the other 30% are just as American as we are and they have just as much right to be here as we do.  I also chastise them because Jesus would NOT tell someone to leave and they are misrepresenting God, pushing non-believers away, and giving non-believers a reason to not believe.  Oh, wait, this was already covered in another thread.  Oops.  Sorry.   [howumakemefeel
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"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."  Romans 12:2

JustLiz

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Re: Roots of Barack Obama's Christian Faith
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2008, 05:09:35 PM »
Wait a minute...stop the presses...I just realized something.

Barack Obama was raised in many diverse cultures by an agnostic mother and a CONFIRMED atheist step-father...and he became a Christian!!!!

You mean I'm not the only one who actually chose Christianity IN SPITE OF not being raised by Christians?

From what I'm reading, he actually spent some time investigating all options?

Could it be?

 [biggrin [howumakemefeel(hugs and kisses)
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Karmageddon: It's like, when everybody is sending off all these really bad vibes, right? And then, like, the Earth explodes and it's like, a serious bummer.

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."  Romans 12:2

Copernicus

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Re: Roots of Barack Obama's Christian Faith
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2008, 08:43:09 PM »
Quote from: JustLiz on July 25, 2008, 05:09:35 PM
Wait a minute...stop the presses...I just realized something.

Barack Obama was raised in many diverse cultures by an agnostic mother and a CONFIRMED atheist step-father...and he became a Christian!!!!

Hold on.  Where did you get that from?  His father abandoned him when he was two years old.  He only met his father once in later life and never really got to know him.  His stepfather practiced a religiously tolerant form of Islam.  His first school in Indonesia was a Catholic school, but he went on to attend a secular public school.  When he got back to the US, he sometimes attended church services at a United Church of Christ, the same denomination that he later "converted" to in Chicago.  Obama was never an atheist.  At best, he was simply non-religious throughout most of his childhood, but he was exposed more to Christianity than any other religion.

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You mean I'm not the only one who actually chose Christianity IN SPITE OF not being raised by Christians?

Like you, Obama was raised in a culture that was predominately Christian. 

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From what I'm reading, he actually spent some time investigating all options?

Lots of adolescents do that.  There is no evidence that Obama was ever seriously interested in practicing any other religion than Christianity.
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End Bringer

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Re: Roots of Barack Obama's Christian Faith
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2008, 10:59:05 PM »
Quote from: Copernicus on July 25, 2008, 08:43:09 PM
Like you, Obama was raised in a culture that was predominately Christian.

What nation is this culture in? Because I've taken a look around the culture of this country and I have to say, Christian it is not.

And is it your position that a culture's level of influence is greater than that of immediate family?
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Copernicus

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Re: Roots of Barack Obama's Christian Faith
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2008, 11:16:09 PM »
Quote from: End Bringer on July 25, 2008, 10:59:05 PM
What nation is this culture in? Because I've taken a look around the culture of this country and I have to say, Christian it is not.

It is a favorite conceit of Christian conservatives that the US should allow prayers in public schools,  displays of the 10 Commandments on public property, and other official endorsements of Christianity by the government, precisely because the US is historically and culturally a Christian country.  I am glad to see that you have rejected that position, although it probably won't win you many friends among your Christian conservative acquaintances.

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And is it your position that a culture's level of influence is greater than that of immediate family?

Not until children reach the stage where peer influence becomes a strong factor in their lives.  All children seem to enter that stage as they mature.  There is no greater evidence of this than in bilingual families, where children tend to understand the language of the family, but they only respond in the language of the dominant culture.  For example, I met children in Brittany who could understand Breton, but would only speak in French.  Peer influence is a powerful factor in the process of maturation in children.
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End Bringer

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Re: Roots of Barack Obama's Christian Faith
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2008, 11:33:36 PM »
Quote from: Copernicus on July 25, 2008, 11:16:09 PM
It is a favorite conceit of Christian conservatives that the US should allow prayers in public schools,  displays of the 10 Commandments on public property, and other official endorsements of Christianity by the government, precisely because the US is historically and culturally a Christian country.  I am glad to see that you have rejected that position, although it probably won't win you many friends among your Christian conservative acquaintances.

More like it's evidence of being awake to the world around me. That TV's glorification of sex and violence can hardly be aligned to the Christian position. That the "if it feels good do it" is largely the message now as it was for a good part of half a century. That it was historically and culturally a Christian country when it was founded does not mean it is now. Though I'm glad you prove to be contradicting in your position that 'it was the culture' while saying the culture and nation isn't what you are describing it to be.

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Not until children reach the stage where peer influence becomes a strong factor in their lives.  All children seem to enter that stage as they mature.  There is no greater evidence of this than in bilingual families, where children tend to understand the language of the family, but they only respond in the language of the dominant culture.  For example, I met children in Brittany who could understand Breton, but would only speak in French.  Peer influence is a powerful factor in the process of maturation in children.

I see you can't distinguash the huge chasam between linguistic preference (where it's the school system teaching to read and write) and philosophical belief. Nor recognize that family has more access to a developing child than society. I find your line of excuses refreshing from the usual 'grew up in that kind of family' line. That someone actually decides to be a Christian by evidence and reason must be an unbarrable thought for you if you constantly have to look for any other source to blame.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 11:42:49 PM by End Bringer »
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Copernicus

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Re: Roots of Barack Obama's Christian Faith
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2008, 10:23:53 AM »
Quote from: End Bringer on July 25, 2008, 11:33:36 PM
More like it's evidence of being awake to the world around me. That TV's glorification of sex and violence can hardly be aligned to the Christian position...

It's not atheists that are promoting all the porn and violence.  You'll find no greater appetite for that sort of thing than in the Bible Belt in the US.  Christian culture is no stranger to hypocrisy.

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I see you can't distinguash the huge chasam between linguistic preference (where it's the school system teaching to read and write) and philosophical belief.  Nor recognize that family has more access to a developing child than society...

The phenomenon I described occurs in pre-schoolers.  It has nothing to do with the school system, although schools tend to promote and reinforce dominant cultural values.  For children to gradually become less and less influenced by the family, even to rebel against family values, is common and natural.  All birds must leave the nest.

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I find your line of excuses refreshing from the usual 'grew up in that kind of family' line. That someone actually decides to be a Christian by evidence and reason must be an unbarrable thought for you if you constantly have to look for any other source to blame.

I don't blame people for their belief choices.  Conversions one way or the other take a lot of time, and they are always the subject of a lot of soul-searching.  Atheism is not a seductive lifestyle.  It is almost always something that one feels driven to.  Religion, on the other hand, tends to be a sucking force.  ;)
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End Bringer

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Re: Roots of Barack Obama's Christian Faith
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2008, 01:13:32 PM »
Quote from: Copernicus on July 26, 2008, 10:23:53 AM
It's not atheists that are promoting all the porn and violence.  You'll find no greater appetite for that sort of thing than in the Bible Belt in the US.  Christian culture is no stranger to hypocrisy.

And I'm sure you tell yourself atheists are as pure as the falling snow every night before you fall asleep too.

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The phenomenon I described occurs in pre-schoolers.

Where they are purposely being taught the basics of reading and writing of the dominent language? Wow. What a coincidence. 

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It has nothing to do with the school system, although schools tend to promote and reinforce dominant cultural values.  For children to gradually become less and less influenced by the family, even to rebel against family values, is common and natural.  All birds must leave the nest.

And as always you show to be contradicting. And usually the 'birds leaving the nest' doesn't happen except when one has become an adult after years of living with one's family.

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I don't blame people for their belief choices.  Conversions one way or the other take a lot of time, and they are always the subject of a lot of soul-searching.  Atheism is not a seductive lifestyle.  It is almost always something that one feels driven to.  Religion, on the other hand, tends to be a sucking force.  ;)

Oh I agree. Atheism being people driven by their inherent sinful pride, while religion sucking people towards the image of God which all people have.  :wink:
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Copernicus

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Re: Roots of Barack Obama's Christian Faith
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2008, 01:28:34 PM »
Quote from: End Bringer on July 26, 2008, 01:13:32 PM
And I'm sure you tell yourself atheists are as pure as the falling snow every night before you fall asleep too.

If you ever bothered to pay attention to what I write in my posts, you would discover the opposite.

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Quote
The phenomenon I described occurs in pre-schoolers.

Where they are purposely being taught the basics of reading and writing of the dominent language? Wow. What a coincidence. 

The phenomenon I described has nothing to do with reading and writing.  Oh well, never mind.   This discussion with you is as productive as all the rest.   :roll:
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End Bringer

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Re: Roots of Barack Obama's Christian Faith
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2008, 12:29:26 AM »
Quote from: Copernicus on July 26, 2008, 01:28:34 PM
If you ever bothered to pay attention to what I write in my posts, you would discover the opposite.

This is one of those times where sarcasam doesn't translate well. I read your post to Ragnar.

But if you want a more serious point, I personally think you'd say it's the "Christian culture" in communist China that's the reason more and more people are being converted. It shows you have a lack of understanding of what a "Christian culture" even is, but feel comfortable in claiming the culture as such so you are free to dismiss any notion of there being something to Christianity based on evidence and objective truth.

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The phenomenon I described has nothing to do with reading and writing.  Oh well, never mind.   This discussion with you is as productive as all the rest.   :roll:

True. Your red herrings never allow us to get very far.
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JustLiz

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Re: Roots of Barack Obama's Christian Faith
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2008, 09:04:40 AM »
Quote
Hold on.  Where did you get that from?  His father abandoned him when he was two years old.  He only met his father once in later life and never really got to know him.  His stepfather practiced a religiously tolerant form of Islam.  His first school in Indonesia was a Catholic school, but he went on to attend a secular public school.  When he got back to the US, he sometimes attended church services at a United Church of Christ, the same denomination that he later "converted" to in Chicago.  Obama was never an atheist.  At best, he was simply non-religious throughout most of his childhood, but he was exposed more to Christianity than any other religion.
Okay, I must be slipping here.  At first, Cop, I was going to say, "Geepers, did you even read the article?"  But then I went back and reread it myself and then I had to ask myself, "Geepers, did I even read the article?"   :oops: I will say I did not state or even imply that Obama was ever an atheist himself, but beyond that, I totally misread the article.  My apologies.
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Karmageddon: It's like, when everybody is sending off all these really bad vibes, right? And then, like, the Earth explodes and it's like, a serious bummer.

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."  Romans 12:2

Tony N

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Re: Roots of Barack Obama's Christian Faith
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2008, 08:09:41 AM »
Obama, according to this movie is not a natural born citizen and therefore cannot, according to our constitution, be a president:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/10/this_could_be_the_game_changer.html

After clicking the link above, scroll down to the movie and be amazed.

If Obama truly was a Christian (whatever that means today?) wouldn't he want transparency by handing over all requested documents to the court for revue to see if he truly was born in the United States?
Tony
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Did God say that He "will have all mankind to be saved" or that He "will NOT have all mankind to be saved? (1Tim.2:4-6]
Did God say He IS the Saviour of all mankind, or that He "is NOT the Saviour of all mankind? (1Tim.4:10)

Well?
Are we told to "charge and teach these things" or are we told "NOT to charge and teach these things"? (1Tim.4:10,11).

Well? Are we?

cimics

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Re: Roots of Barack Obama's Christian Faith
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2008, 08:42:39 AM »
Obama's Hawaii birth certificate can be found here
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W. E. Messamore

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Re: Roots of Barack Obama's Christian Faith
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2008, 08:31:28 PM »
Earlier in the thread, JustLiz wrote:

Quote
It sounds like Obama is one who gets it.  My brother - an atheist and a Republican - explained to me that, while he supports Bush's policies, personally Bush offends him.  He said that if the president were a Satan worshipper and closed his speaches with "May Satan bless you," the entire nation would be up in arms about it but Bush saying "God bless you" is acceptable.

I am a Christian myself, but I can look you in the eye and honestly say that if a president worshipped Satan and ended speeches with "May Satan bless you," and also supported, enacted, and worked hard for policies that I agree with, ran the government well, reduced taxes AND spending, brought our troops home, signed off on repealing the Patriot Act, appointed strict constructionist judges and Justices, and reduced the size, scope, and power of the federal government... as long as he or she did all these things, I'd vote for him/her again and wouldn't be outraged that a Satanist was in the White House. 

...I'd just lament "Why does the Devil get all the good politicians?"
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Anthony Horvath

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Re: Roots of Barack Obama's Christian Faith
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2008, 08:49:36 PM »
lol, that's awesome.
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Tony N

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Re: Roots of Barack Obama's Christian Faith
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2008, 01:34:30 PM »
Obama get it?

He went to a church that spewed hatred toward whites.

Obama's pastor believes in a black supremacy which believes whites should be killed if need be. I imagine Obama, having gone to this church for 20 some years, would believe that as well.
Look up "Black Liberation theology" and see what White believed and taught. It is based on Marxist ideology and believes it is O.K. to kill whites to get ahead.

Just because Obama got wet (baptized) went to church etc. does not make him a truly saved person. A Christian, maybe, but not a saved Christian. Many churches are filled to the brim with unbelievers who call themselves christians.

I'm not saying Obama is not saved. He may be.

How can Obama sit in a church for 20 years under a pastor that preaches hatred toward whites? Either Obama is stupid and has the I.Q. of a retard or he believed what pastor White was teaching.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2008, 01:42:47 PM by Tony N »
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Did God say that He "will have all mankind to be saved" or that He "will NOT have all mankind to be saved? (1Tim.2:4-6]
Did God say He IS the Saviour of all mankind, or that He "is NOT the Saviour of all mankind? (1Tim.4:10)

Well?
Are we told to "charge and teach these things" or are we told "NOT to charge and teach these things"? (1Tim.4:10,11).

Well? Are we?

Zagzagel

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Re: Roots of Barack Obama's Christian Faith
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2008, 08:10:41 PM »
I am a Christian myself, but I can look you in the eye and honestly say that if a president worshipped Satan and ended speeches with "May Satan bless you," and also supported, enacted, and worked hard for policies that I agree with, ran the government well, reduced taxes AND spending, brought our troops home, signed off on repealing the Patriot Act, appointed strict constructionist judges and Justices, and reduced the size, scope, and power of the federal government... as long as he or she did all these things, I'd vote for him/her again and wouldn't be outraged that a Satanist was in the White House. 

...I'd just lament "Why does the Devil get all the good politicians?"

heh... nice.  666 the way 666 I 666.  hehe
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