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JustLiz

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Two Years Later...
« on: March 19, 2008, 01:53:40 PM »
I want to apologize up front.  I am not on here often enough to actively debate what I am sharing.  I still wanted to share with all of you some of my thoughts of late.  Enjoy it, trash it, agree with it, or disagree with it.  I hope that, most of all, it makes you think.

God bless.

It
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Karmageddon: It's like, when everybody is sending off all these really bad vibes, right? And then, like, the Earth explodes and it's like, a serious bummer.

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."  Romans 12:2

cutupmaster

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Re: Two Years Later...
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2008, 04:34:33 PM »
Hi! I'm an atheist, but you may be surprised to know that I agree with many of the observations and insights you made.

For instance:

"Knowing this, how can we have anything other than compassion for other people
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Rabbitball

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Re: Two Years Later...
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2008, 10:38:01 AM »
Quote from: cutupmaster on March 19, 2008, 04:34:33 PM
I do have a question, though. Do you believe that non-believers go to hell? If so, do you believe they "reject Christ" out of ignorance?

I'll put some thoughts here and you can tell me where you stand on them.

When people think of hell, they are often confusing several concepts. It is true that the Bible refers to Hades as a place where some will be tormented in flames (Luke 16:19-31) but later in Revelation 20:14-15, we see that death, Hades, and those who weren't found in the Book of Life were thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death. So there is more to this than what is first proposed.

Death and Hades can't be burned, so the lake of fire is probably symbolic of eternal separation from God. Now to the person who doesn't want anything to do with God, this may seem like a good thing. But when they realize what they are missing, namely contact with anything good or just or pure, that will cause weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:40-43; 47-50)

Is this out of ignorance? In some cases. But ultimately, man is without excuse (Romans 1:20), so there has to come a point where ignorance is no longer in play. Where that is for any individual person, I cannot say. But for me, when I started searching for the answer, I was given enough to know the truth and dispel ignorance.
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JustLiz

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Re: Two Years Later...
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2008, 10:02:37 AM »
I don't know if it's too late to answer this question, but I saw it so I am!

Quote from: cutupmaster on March 19, 2008, 04:34:33 PM
I do have a question, though. Do you believe that non-believers go to hell? If so, do you believe they "reject Christ" out of ignorance?
Yes, I do believe non-believers go to hell.  But, it isn't as simplistic as "rejecting Christ."  Every decision we make involves choosing one of two options.  The decision to "reject" Christ means deciding to "accept" something else instead.  What is that something else?

As far as it being out of ignorance, what is the root cause of the ignorance?  Why would someone choose to remain ignorant about an issue?  Why would someone choose to not become educated about an issue and allow their ignorance to guide their decision making?  Why would it be more important to someone to be right than to be in the truth?  Why would someone not say, "Oh, gosh, this is a very important matter and I owe it to myself to discard all of my beliefs and biases to ruthlessly look for the truth even if it is contrary to everything I know or think I know and believe because I value the truth more than I value being right.  I had better spend quite a bit of time and energy investigating this thing from every angle."  Why wouldn't someone do that?

Pride.

An inflated view of self.

Belief that one is smarter and wiser than one actually is.

It is pride that allows people to reject facts that contradict their viewpoint.

It is pride that disguises itself as haughty intellect to creatively justify ones own position.

Ignorance is the symptom.  Pride is the disease.
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Karmageddon: It's like, when everybody is sending off all these really bad vibes, right? And then, like, the Earth explodes and it's like, a serious bummer.

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."  Romans 12:2

Tony N

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Re: Two Years Later...
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2008, 07:19:23 AM »
Quote from: JustLiz on July 22, 2008, 10:02:37 AM
I don't know if it's too late to answer this question, but I saw it so I am!

Quote from: cutupmaster on March 19, 2008, 04:34:33 PM
I do have a question, though. Do you believe that non-believers go to hell? If so, do you believe they "reject Christ" out of ignorance?
Yes, I do believe non-believers go to hell.  But, it isn't as simplistic as "rejecting Christ."  Every decision we make involves choosing one of two options.  The decision to "reject" Christ means deciding to "accept" something else instead.  What is that something else?

1) I wonder what you mean by "hell"?

2) Where in the Bible does it ever state that people go to hell for not believing Christ died for them?

3) "rejecting Christ" presupposes they "could have done differently." Why did they not accept Christ? Why did we "accept" Christ? By "accept Christ" I hope you mean that such ones believe God that Christ died for their sins, right? Which brings me to this point: How can they believe if God does not give them the faith FIRST to believe. And if He does not, is He not responsible for their lack of faith? Yes, He is. God "chose us before the disruption of the world" which means He chose us before we chose Him.

Rom 8:29-30  that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren."  (30)  Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also."

The above passage shows us God has no doubts as to the outcome of those He foreknew and designated beforehand (before they were born) that they would be conformed to the image of His Son, that they would be justified and glorified also. It is dependent upon God, not us.

Tony
http://saviourofall.org
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Did God say that He "will have all mankind to be saved" or that He "will NOT have all mankind to be saved? (1Tim.2:4-6]
Did God say He IS the Saviour of all mankind, or that He "is NOT the Saviour of all mankind? (1Tim.4:10)

Well?
Are we told to "charge and teach these things" or are we told "NOT to charge and teach these things"? (1Tim.4:10,11).

Well? Are we?

Ragnar

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Re: Two Years Later...
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2008, 10:15:50 PM »
yikes, I almost agree with something Tony N said. The Apocalypse must be near ;)

I remember reading something by an atheist, it might have actually been Cop or Heretic or somebody on here, that I have always liked. It was something to the effect of if there is a god, then it is his fault I am an atheist, because I have only used the brain he gave me to come to the rational conclusion that there is no god.
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Tony N

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Re: Two Years Later...
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2008, 09:39:38 AM »
Quote from: Ragnar on September 26, 2008, 10:15:50 PM
yikes, I almost agree with something Tony N said. The Apocalypse must be near ;)

I remember reading something by an atheist, it might have actually been Cop or Heretic or somebody on here, that I have always liked. It was something to the effect of if there is a god, then it is his fault I am an atheist, because I have only used the brain he gave me to come to the rational conclusion that there is no god.

Hi Ragnar,
Whatever a person is in this life should be traced back to God.

However, that being said, we should not state that we used the brain God gave us in order to know that there is no God. The brain God gave us tells us, by looking at the vast creation, that only God could have created this immense universe. It is the blinding which takes place that keeps many in the dark concerning Deity.

But God raised up Pharaoh and Judas and Jacob & Esau for very specific functions in life. He did this also in raising you and everyone else up. But this is not to eternally torture them.

Rom 8:20-21  For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation"  (21)  that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God."

Humanity has a glorious future!
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Did God say that He "will have all mankind to be saved" or that He "will NOT have all mankind to be saved? (1Tim.2:4-6]
Did God say He IS the Saviour of all mankind, or that He "is NOT the Saviour of all mankind? (1Tim.4:10)

Well?
Are we told to "charge and teach these things" or are we told "NOT to charge and teach these things"? (1Tim.4:10,11).

Well? Are we?
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