Tony's reply:
Try to really get this down pat:
No choice is causeless. No will is free from causality. All choices are caused. Therefore free-will is an illusion. Since man cannot do otherwise than the make the choices he makes, he is not responsible for those choices. If free will were real, if mankind really did posess a will that is free then he is not responsible for nothing caused him to do that which he freely did since it is free from all causality. Likewise, since God's intention is impossible to fight and all mankind does according as He intends, mankind again is not responsible for he could not do otherwise.

-_-' Then you admit we at least choose, to some degree? That our choices are based on the conditions of our lives? Then there is choice there. Perhaps it does not adhere to your overtly broad view of what "free will" should be defined as (will that is completely uninhibited by anything, as opposed to will that is uninhibited by puppet strings that willfully manipulate every single nuance of it).

You say "All choices are caused," but they are still choices. There were still hypothetical odds that we would have chosen the other paths... it's just that this is the one we chose, and God (assuming for the moment that he exists) knew we'd choose that path. Causality does not negate choice; it merely provides the conditions for it. That's the view I hold, anyways... (nix the God part, which I don't presently believe in).

No human is tortured in fire. Let's get that straight.

I'm just using the same kind of imagery the Bible uses. If Jesus described after-death punishment by means of fire, why can't I?

As for this:

The mass of mankind, (as far as I know it is the majority), goes into the second death which is unconsciousness. That is what death is. It does not say they go there due to lack of faith in Christ. God will raise them from unconscious death at a later time. Thousands of years may have passed from the time they go into the second death and the time they come out but to them, due to being unconscious, it is but a split second.

It is conjecture. I've no need to respond to that yet, not 'til the if-and-when that I accept general Christianity as being true.

Salvation is not earned, therefore no one can do anything to earn it or loose it and no one can do anything that would merit salvation or lack thereof. We believe, not because belief is inherent in each of us (it isn't) but we believe because He gives us the faith to believe.

-_-' But how does that account for the part where we're supposed to come to Him? That implies that we take the step toward that faith. Or am I reading my Bibles wrong?

In Romans 9 it is God that makes the vessels, some for dishonor and some for honor. We don't make ourselves that way. It is for a valuable lesson both vessels need to learn.

What that would imply to me (taking into account the foreknowledge verse) is that God went ahead and made the vessels that would give themselves over to dishonor, knowing they'd go ahead and do that, rather than making only the honorable ones. In other words, he let us go into dishonor if we wanted to, he didn't step in and lay down a detour roadblock.

All of this is to say that I haven't found anything in the Bible that implies a complete lack of responsibility on our parts, as your view implies.

Rom 9:19 You will be protesting to me, then, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?
NT, no one has been able to withstand His intention. Yet He is still blaming. He still finds fault. Why? Because God is God and it is His creation and He can do with it what He deems best and loving. Hell is not the goal God has in mind for anyone but reconciliation and salvation.

Reconciliation and salvation from a calamity that God Himself reached down and put there himself? My goodness, that's like the imposter superhero who pushes the old man into the rush-hour traffic and then jumps in to save him! Are you saying that God blames us for His own intentions? 'Cause that's what this sounds like... and that doesn't sound very "best" or "loving" to me... (But then, who am I to decide what the word "loving" means? As for best, that's for the omnipotent to know, but I'm pretty sure I can know what "loving" is.)

Tony's reply:
What I think you are saying is: If God doesn't do it your way, it won't be done? He needs your approval?

No, that's actually what I keep arguing against when I say that historical/material evidence is more relevant in determining God's existence than examining his alleged behaviors. But when a behavior seems not to sit quietly or harmoniously with his claims of goodness and such like, am I wrong to ask questions? Job was chided quite ruthlessly, but I don't recall him being chided for asking questions.

God does not just "see the future" but He "tells the future" . . .

Neither of which is always or necessarily the same or dependant on "Reaching down and making the future."

Isa 46:10 Telling from the beginning, the hereafter, and from aforetime, what has not yet been done. Saying, `All My counsel shall be confirmed, and all My desire will I do.'"
Isa 46:11 Calling from the sunrise, a bird of prey, from a land far off, the man of My counsel. Indeed, I speak! Indeed, I will bring it about! I formed. Indeed, I will do it."

Isa 45:23 By Myself I swear. From My mouth fares forth righteousness, and My word shall not be recalled. For to Me shall bow every knee, and every tongue shall acclaim to Elohim."

God does not just see the day when you and 8bone will bow in worshipful adoration to God, the word has already gone out of His mouth and will not return empty.

Tell me, though... if we have no choice, what is the purpose of "eonion chastisement?" To teach us a lesson we didn't have to learn in the first place? Explain that to me. If God is simply going to make us worship him in the end anyway, why should he have to go through all of this and wind up punishing most of us in the meantime? Why not have us all worship him from the off? If we don't choose to worship him, such a lesson is inherently meaningless.

Tony's reply:
It is worse, we aren't even robots or puppets, we are clay vessels which He formed. We can't even oppose how He made us.
Dan 4:35 All abiding on the earth are reckoned as naught: According to His will is He doing in the army of the heavens and with those abiding on the earth. And no one will actually clap with his hands and say to Him, "What doest Thou?

Yet is is all for good. He doesn't do all this just to prove He can. He does it because He loves us and has an utterly fantastic end for all mankind.

Does God reject people before they are born? You bet!

Why?

Rom 9:11-16  For, not as yet being born, nor putting into practice anything good or bad, that the purpose of God may be remaining as a choice, not out of acts, but of Him Who is calling,  (12)  it was declared to her that "The greater shall be slaving for the inferior,  (13)  According as it is written, "Jacob I love, yet Esau I hate."  (14)  What, then, shall we be declaring? Not that there is injustice with God? May it not be coming to that!"  (15)  For to Moses He is saying, "I shall be merciful to whomever I may be merciful, and I shall be pitying whomever I may be pitying."  (16)  Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful."

And notice that in Revelation where it is stated that:

Rev. 3:20 reads "Behold I stand at the door and knock: if any man hears my voice, and opens the door, I will come in to him , and will sup with him, and he with me."

that the one who does open the door of that synagogue Christ will come into that synagogue toward him and will sup with him and he with Me. We must not think that because such a one opened the door that they did it of some supposed free will. It is done because God wanted Christ to sup with that specific one.

-_-' Pardon me, but can you explain your reasoning behind that? 'Cause I'm lost, man, I am lost.

Another interesting verse is this:
John 3:16 also tells us "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Jesus said that man saving himself is impossible: Mat 19:25-26  Now, hearing it, the disciples were tremendously astonished, saying, "Who, consequently, can be saved?  (26)  Now, looking at them, Jesus said to them, "With men this is impossible, yet with God all is possible."

If a man is not set for life eonian they cannot believe (Acts 13:48).
And did not Jesus say "Not you choose me but I choose you."

It is just absolutely impossible for anyone to believe or please God without God making that person a vessel for honor or working a grace in that person so that they can be honoring Him.

But not to worry, in the end God is going to save all mankind and He will be justified in how He operates HIS universe HIS way, not your way, not my way but HIS way.

At which time, my arrogant inability to understand his unfathomable reasoning will most likely be passed over in forgiving silence. In the meantime, color me confuzzled.