This is sposed to be between geegee and me but I'll letcha slide this time  

sntjohnny wrote:
If anything the Romans 11 passage defeats your attempts to make any distinctions and reveals your effort to make a distinction to be meritless. You cite verse 26 but somehow miss verse 25.

26 says... "And so all Israel will be saved..."

Tony's reply:
Romans 11 defeats my attempt and makes a distinction meritless?    hmm, let's think about this.

1) First Christ comes and He does not set foot on the ground. Rather, we meet Him in the air and THUS (in the air above the earth) shall we ever be with the Lord. Col 1:13 Who rescues us out of the jurisdiction of Darkness, and transports us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,

2) AFTER the complement of the nations enters and Christ takes us to Himself in the air, He comes back a second time and sets His feet on Mnt. Zion.
Rev 14:1 And I perceived, and lo! the Lambkin standing on mount Zion, and with It a hundred forty-four thousand, having Its name and Its Father's name written on their foreheads."

How that distinction is meritless is beyond me.  
But, hey, knock yourself out johnny.  

Dear sntjohnny, please read the entire Old Testament and the entire new testament without including Paul's writings and tell me if the Circumcision ever believed they were "going to heaven".

Paul wrote his epistles to the UNCIRCUMCISION. Peter, James and John and Hebrews (hint, the epistle to the Hebrews is written to whom?) wrote to the CIRCUMCISION. Please read who they addressed their epistles to.

1 Thessalonians is an uncircumcision epistle. The "we" who will meet the Lord in the air is the uncircumcision believers of the nations composed of ***some*** believers of the Jews who came under Paul's evangel once Israel was set aside. It is called the body of Christ. But now we are getting into deeper things. The Circumcision believers are the bride of Christ.

Anyway, please note the address on the envelopes in the NT.

geegee, we, the nations, were *figuratively* grafted into a figurative *tree* not grafted into Israel.

The olive tree figures the light one gets from the olive oil pressed therefrom and gives light (the light of truth). The nations now are light bearers.

Within, I repeat, ***within*** the body of Christ there is now neither Jew nor Gentile, slave or free, male or female but in **the Lord** these differences still exist and . . . and in the group of believers of the Circumcision before Israel was set aside, there was a vast difference between believers of the nations and those of the earth.

So it is not correct for you to say that "Gentiles have been grafted into the body of believing Israel." It is the body of Christ that Paul addressed the epistle to to the fact that the body of Christ, the believers of the nations have one calling, one hope (expectation) not two . . . not some of the nations having an earthly expectation and another part having a celestial expectation but the whole body of Christ of the nations having one expectation, a heavenly allotment.

Jesus other sheep not of the fold could have been John's disciples.  

Geegee nailed it.  His example by itself would be enough to end the whole discussion.

The Ephesians passage, completely ignored, provides the same service:

2:11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)

P.S. , geegee, where in all the Bible beginning with Genesis all the way to Revelation outside of Paul's epistles is it ever stated that believers in Israel go to heaven?

Outside of Pauls epistles?  I think I know what you are thinking here...  Since it was Paul who was called to be a minister to the Gentile nations, therefore his messages alone deals with certian things that do not include believing Israel?  Hee, hee.  You are almost as sly as me, my friend.

IF I am able to find one scriptural passage, not including Pauls epistles of course, that tells the believing Jew that they go to heaven... what would you give me as a reward?  I am thinking that you require more than one passage of course (so would I), so are two examples good enough?

Okay.  I guess that is a good challenge.  I'll be back with answer IF there is one to be found.

In all that blather, I didn't hear any attention to the Ephesians passage.

But you already gave Jesus' parable, which is not Paul, either, so the challenge was met even before it was posed.

I suppose we have to exclude the Ephesians passage because it explicitly destroys Tony's argument?  Seems odd to me.

Hello dear friend,
geegee, yes, they will come from the east and the west and sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who, at that time, will come forth from their tombs and be in the kingdom of the heavens which is the kingdom which will be set up on the earth during the 1000 year kingdom.

This is the promise God originally gave to Abraham that he would inherit the land God gave to him.
The kingdom OF the heavens, not the kingdom IN the heavens but OF the heavens would be set up in that land, that land being Israel.

"Repent ye for
the Kingdom of the heavens has drawn nigh" (Matt.3:2). This
Kingdom, which will break in pieces and consume the Babylonian,
the Medo Persian, the Grecian and the Roman world powers, which
shall never be left to any other people but the Chosen Nation
(Dan.2:44)

The basic thought of the "kingdom of the heavens" is found in
Dan.2:44, where we read: "And in the days of these kings shall
the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be
destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to another people,
but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms..."

"And the kingdom
and the dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the
whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the
Most High" (Dan.7:27). The twelve apostles shall sit upon twelve
thrones judging (ruling) the twelve tribes of Israel (Matt.19:
28). Others shall have authority, some over five cities, some over
ten. This authority is referred to when he tells them to teach or
disciple all nations (Matt.28:19).

Nothing is said about them "going to heaven."


Concerning your question on Luke 6:23, Matthew has just a slightly different slant on it. I will give both here:

Luk 6:22 Happy are you whenever men should be hating you, and whenever they should be severing from you and reproaching you and casting out your name as wicked, on account of the Son of Mankind."
Luk 6:23 You may be rejoicing in that day, and frisk, for lo! your wages are vast in heaven[/u], for according to the same manner did their fathers to the prophets."

Mat 5:11 "Happy are you whenever they should be reproaching and persecuting you and, falsifying, saying every wicked thing against you, on my account.
Mat 5:12 Rejoice and exult, for your wages are vast in the heavens. For thus they persecute the prophets before you.

Matt. has "heavens" whereas luke has "heaven."
Either way, their ***wages*** are in the heaven(s) and when Christ comes back he will be **paying** each what their **wages** are when He is on the earth and sets up the kingdom (see Matt.25:31)
Rev 22:12 Lo! I am coming swiftly, and My wage is with Me, to pay each one as his work is."

Rev 11:18 And the nations are angered, and Thy indignation came, and the era for the dead to be judged, and to give their wages to Thy slaves, the prophets, and to the saints and to those fearing Thy name, the small and the great, and to blight those who are blighting the earth."

This all occurs when Christ sets His blessed feet on Mount Zion.

Tony

Hello dear friend

Thank you.  I greet you with the same respect.

As of now, I personally do not see anything wrong with what I came forth with.  Actually, I am doing my best not to explain too much in my own words..but simply allowing the scriptures to interprete itself.  But the question is this.  Am I understanding that meaning right?  Could be!

Okay.  I Will now include more of my own thoughts and do my best to fit scriptural passages that present it.  Now, I am presently thinking that they who come from the east and west to sit with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are the ones who have to come to the center.  If you come from the east and come from the west, you meet at a certian point....THE central point.  You believe this is about the "land" vs the "heaven(s)".  I do not figure that into the equation.  I am currently thinking that this is symbolism telling a truth about the PROMISES.  There is a pattern there in Jesus words to be discovered.  I stated earlier that the promises were first given to the Jews.  This is obviously seen in Jesus words concerning Abraham, Isaaac and Jacob.  A promise was made to Abraham and continued in his prodigy.  The book of Hebrews mentions the prodigies of faith but a certian promise was given to Abraham and his seed.  According to Paul, the "seed" of Abraham was Jesus the Christ.  And Paul affirms that in his letters.  Even more, we are of that seed.  Therefore we too, the Gentile nations, are included into those promises which were given to Abraham.  (I'm crunching alot here so ask if something is not clear too you by what I am try to show)   So, this fits into what I was saying earlier.  The Gentiles have not come into a different promise, hope or faith.  We were grafted into that true olive root to partake with the true branches.  And the allotment is the same for Jew and Gentile.  (I will show that more if I am skilled enough.  I feel like Moses at times with the stuttering problem.  lol)

How about a verse?  Lets look into this one before I comment more on the ones that I already brought forth.

Read Hebrews 11, especially 8-16.  The "land", or what I think really is "the faith" that the writer of Hebrews linked with, was really about "perfection".  How did he (this writer of the Hebrew letter - perhaps Paul?) come to such a conclusion?  A parcel of land seems besides the point here.  I think that chapter 12 versus 22-29 answer that question which correspondes to Revelation 21 and 2 Peter chapter 3.  

So the issue is not some kind of realestate or parcel of land.  The issue is the faith in what those promises were.  Those scriptures above give a differing idea than the one you present.

Having said that, I still must consider your understanding and this is something I will think about more in the next few days.  But later on I will respond to my first example of the parable between the shepherd and fold...and why I do not think that those "others" are John's disciples.

Peace.