Topic: Celestial (heavenly) destiny same as Earthly destiny? (Read 22865 times)

Tony N · « **Reply #20 on:** November 22, 2005, 08:49:11 PM »

geegee, just something to think on:

"NOT OF THIS FOLD"

Jesus was heralding the kingdom as for the "sheep" only.
Thus we read, "Do not fear, little flocklet, for it delights your
Father to give you the kingdom" (Luke 12:32). The "sheep" of the
future kingdom on the earth will be Israelites only. Even the term
"straying sheep" refers to the Israelite outside the land,
dispersed among the nations. It is these who "turn back to the
Shepherd" (1 Peter 2:25). This is further indicated in the words
of the Lord: "And other sheep have I which are not of this fold
(i.e., the "straying sheep" were not of the "fold" of Israel).
Those I must be leading, and they will be hearing My voice, and
there will be one flock, one Shepherd" (John 10:16).

The "fold" is Israel, with her wall of ordinances. The flock
is those of Israel who hear His voice and follow the Shepherd out
of the fold. Some of the dispersion among the nations were reached
by Peter's epistles and so were taken into the one "flock" and
followed the Shepherd with the other sheep in the land."
(from Unsearchable Riches vol 54)

I will think more on the other things you wrote about before I respond. Sometimes patience is a virtue.

Zagzagel · « **Reply #21 on:** November 22, 2005, 09:10:50 PM »

Okay. Just keep in mind, as you ponder what I said, that John's followers were already Jews. I find it hard to think about them as any "other" flock. Anyways, Jesus ministry was ONLY centered, at that time, towards the Jews. Even the those Samaritans were looked upon as the rejected...never mind the real Gentile.

Tony N · « **Reply #22 on:** November 23, 2005, 07:14:58 AM »

geegee, you wrote:

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Reason? John's followers were Jews. They were not called from the east or west and invited to sit with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. This was ALREADY their posession as one who are believers. Thus my point of the meaning of the word "original branches".

Who said that those who come from the east and west had to be John the baptist's followers? Not I. Neither the Scriptures.

Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. (KJV)

Mat 8:11 Now I am saying to you that many from the east and the west shall be arriving and reclining with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens. (CLT)

Just so we both understand each other, am I correct to understand that you believe all promises to Abraham are null and void? Am I to understand that when Peter and the eleven sit on thrones and judge or oversee the twelve tribes of Israel that this is to be done outside the land? Is this your understanding?

Tony

valerie · « **Reply #23 on:** November 23, 2005, 07:42:09 AM »

Just for interest...how is this at explaining Geegee...

And after the house of Israel should be scattered they should be gathered together again; or, in fine, after the Gentiles had received the fulness of the Gospel, the natural branches of the elive-tree, or the remnants of the house of Israel, should be grafted in, or come to the knowledge of the true Messiah, their Lord and their Redeemer.

Tony N · « **Reply #24 on:** November 23, 2005, 06:02:04 PM »

Philippians 3:20 For our realm is inherent in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ,

The word "inherent" means "belongs." Our realm belongs in the heavens.

Please note that "realm" is is singular and "heavens" is plural.
"out of which" is singular and must agree with the singular noun in the sentence. Therefore, based upon Greek grammar, We are awaiting a Saviour out of OUR REALM which belongs in the heavens. That is where we are going to. That is where we belong. "Our" are Uncircumcision believers.

valerie · « **Reply #25 on:** November 24, 2005, 09:44:25 AM »

I'm sorry for nosing around in this coversation but I wanted to make sure I understood the argument. Tony N is an Uncircumcision believer a Gentile?

If so what is meant in Jer. 4:
4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

Does that not speak of a spiritual rather than physical aspect? Thus cannot it apply to all people? I think you are confusing two things physical and spiritual.

I may be wrong, help me understand.

Zagzagel · « **Reply #26 on:** November 24, 2005, 12:11:12 PM »

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Who said that those who come from the east and west had to be John the baptist's followers? Not I. Neither the Scriptures.

Hi, Tony. I was just trying clarify my current position. I see that I have to do a better job. lol.

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Just so we both understand each other, am I correct to understand that you believe all promises to Abraham are null and void? Am I to understand that when Peter and the eleven sit on thrones and judge or oversee the twelve tribes of Israel that this is to be done outside the land? Is this your understanding?

No. I think Paul speaks of those promises as being established through Jesus and faith. This I think is the reason he counted all things as loss even though he himself is a Jew. Even though Peter was sent to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles. I do not necessarily believe that we can come to reason that there is some differences concerning promises and destiny.

I'm not quite sure how to answer your next question yet. Later I will attempt to do that.

Val. I think you might be unto something with your couple of posts. Welcome to this thread.

valerie · « **Reply #27 on:** November 24, 2005, 01:51:59 PM »

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Val. I think you might be unto something with your couple of posts.

I am? Boy, let me grab my ice skates because he** just froze over!

Zagzagel · « **Reply #28 on:** November 24, 2005, 02:13:12 PM »

Tony. I am dropping in quickly to make more clear my thoughts based on the book of Ephesians.

Here is my quick commentary:

1:6 Gentiles have become accepted in the beloved

1:22 The church started with Jewish believers. The Gentiles were called to participate according to God's good pleasure.

2:12 Gentiles were the ones who were alienated from the covenants of promise first given to Israel.

2:16 That enmity between Jew and Gentile has been annulled.

2:19 Gentiles are no longer strangers or foreigners, but fellow-citizens.

2:20 Gentiles are on the same foundation as the believing Jew.

2:22 Together we are God's church and dwelling place.

3:6 One gospel to Jew and Gentile.

4:4-6 There is one body, one spirit, one hope, one calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

4:13 A call to unity.

Does that help to explain my position more? Its like i've been trying to show you. It is the Gentiles who been called INTO a position already established for another - namely, Israel. To be participants and to share the promises.

Later.

Zagzagel · « **Reply #29 on:** November 24, 2005, 02:55:01 PM »

Okay. Now what about that Philippians passage? I don't think its saying anything different.

Paul again is speaking of the one gospel in which these saints have been called to fellowship in. In order to make sense of your verse, I think its important to understand why Paul said what he said about "our realm is inherent in the heavens, out of.." To the Church, this is true. Our realm, our position is in the heavens, that is, in Jesus Christ. Paul refreshed the struggles that the Gentiles had with the "concision". The "dogs" or "evil workers" were those (i think) of the circumsicion who continually tried to convert the Gentile believers to follow the earthly ordinances. Pauls idea of the "heavens" does away with earthly ideas. In fact, what I think Paul is saying is that believing Jews and Gentiles citizenship belongs to the "heavens" where spiritual realities dwell. They are not called to participate in the earthly realm where the Law and Temple rites was concerned. They were to follow and cling to Jesus who is from heaven.

Val gave an example of this earlier where circumsicion of the heart was the necessary thing. Not of the flesh, but a heavenly work.

Tony N · « **Reply #30 on:** November 24, 2005, 05:26:31 PM »

geegee,
So are you saying that Peter and the eleven and those they ministered to all go to heaven when Christ comes back?

Zagzagel · « **Reply #31 on:** November 24, 2005, 07:06:17 PM »

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So are you saying that Peter and the eleven and those they ministered to all go to heaven when Christ comes back?

Lets discuss a scripture. What can we find in Hebrews?

Chapter 11:8-10 (KJV)

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise. For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Comment: Notice that the writer of this letter has Abraham sojourning IN the land of promise, and that this land of promise was as if it was a strange country. The writer indicates that Abraham was still looking for a "city".

Chapter 11:13-16

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth . FOR they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Comment: Isn't it strange that the writer sees them as calling themselves pilgrims and strangers on the earth? They sought a heavenly country. And again the "city" is mentioned and associated with what God prepares for them.

I will decide to end this part of Hebrews with a question. Can we link this with John 14:1-3?

I will continue with Hebrews in our next session.

Tony N · « **Reply #32 on:** November 24, 2005, 07:30:17 PM »

Yes, geegee, He prepared for them a city

And what city is that which they will get? It will be the New City Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven and lands on the earth (Rev.3:12; 21:2).

Zagzagel · « **Reply #33 on:** November 24, 2005, 07:57:02 PM »

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Yes, geegee, He prepared for them a city

And what city is that which they will get? It will be the New City Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven and lands on the earth (Rev.3:12; 21:2).

And you do not think that this is also the Gentiles portion?

Tony N · « **Reply #34 on:** November 25, 2005, 05:45:24 AM »

The city's realm is inherent on the earth.

The Gentile believer's realm is inherent in the heavens.

The Gentile believer is given a celestial body 1 Cor.15:40,48,49 to fit us for our celestial realm to which we are going.

The believers of the Circumcision are not given such a body because they don't need fit for the celestial realm because they remain on the earth.

What did Jesus tell Nicodemus?
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? (KJV)

Joh 3:12 If I told you of the terrestrial and you are not believing, how shall you be believing if I should be telling you of the celestial? (Concordant Literal)

The new birth He was just talking about is earthly. Nicodemus was supposed to know from reading the old testament that Israel was to go through a new birth; that the nation was to be born in a day and then they'd go into the kingdom in Israel. Since He couldn't get to first base with Nicodemus, He could not tell him about heavenly/celestial matters.

Get it?

Tony
http://www.saviour-of-all.org

valerie · « **Reply #35 on:** November 25, 2005, 01:44:07 PM »

It seems there are two disputes here, who gets the Celestial realm and what exactly IS the Celestial realm? Let me know if I have that wrong. However, going on that assumption I am going to add my two cents here. The 1 Cor. 15 scriptures talk about the ressurrection and the two seperate aspects of a person, their body and their spirit. I think you guys would agree that to be resurrected would mean the re-uniting of the physical body and the spirit?

Versus 40-41 talk about Celestial and Terrestrial which are seperate kingdoms/realms, I think Tony N has that right. Read verse 41 again, it talks of glory of the Sun, moon and stars. Would that not imply 3 kingdoms/realms? I disagree with Tony N that this residence in any of the kingdoms has to do with Jew or Gentile. Rather as I spoke of before, the circumcision of the heart. However, the 3 kingdoms does imply differentl levels of glory for people. Does it not?

Versus 42-49 talk about the ressurrection. In our current form we are not heavenly bodies, our bodies and spirits are corrupt. To be with God we have to change, our bodies and spirits have to become new, sanctified, heavenly if you will.

Versus 51-52 are very interesting! Take for an example a person who is alive, has not died when Christ returns for the second time. Well, how would you be ressurrected? You haven't died, what now? Paul explains this in these two versus, your body and spirit will be instantly changed to that which is holy, heavenly. I think this is what some call the rapture? It is not a physical taking up to heaven but a physical transition of the body. The being enveloped in the cloud (Thessalonians 4:17) is a metaphor for that transformation.

The 3 kingdoms are different levels of glory based on righteousness. It may be that only the Mormons believe in that but you have stumbled on a very important supporting scripture for it!

Zagzagel · « **Reply #36 on:** November 25, 2005, 02:07:04 PM »

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The city's realm is inherent on the earth.

The Gentile believer's realm is inherent in the heavens.

As I have shown, Tony, the believing Patriarchs of old were looking for a city builded by God. The writer of Hebrews tells us they still saught this city even though they sojourned in the promised land. Here is what that city is according to Hebrews 12:22-24

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and Church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new ovenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

The writer of Hebrews, as I undertand it, is inviting the Hebrew people to come unto this city already established. Notice the words mount Sion, city, assembly, firstborn, heavenly Jerusalem, general assembly, CHURCH of the firstborn, written in heaven, etc? They are illustrative of what the Gentile believer possess. But it also what the Jews possessed and what was promised anions ago. The Gentiles have been called into this realm of the heavens which belong to the Jews. The language is similar throughout the NT writings concerning the possession and promise for Jew and Gentile.

Now what is happening in this book, i think, is that those fence straddlers, those Jews who have not fully entered into the NC promise, are being invited into to take possession of their lot by faith. To recognize that Jesus is their last prophet of the ages - their Shepherd and Bishop.

The book of Revelation has the same language when speaking of this New Jerusalem which descends from heaven. I will go more into that later, and respond to the rest of your post later. I have errands to do. Later then, brother.

Zagzagel · « **Reply #37 on:** November 25, 2005, 02:11:59 PM »

Hi Val. Yes, I want to eventually include Cor 15 into my explanations. The answer may suprise you.

valerie · « **Reply #38 on:** November 25, 2005, 04:21:31 PM »

Let me guess, Geegee, the word "Celestial" is mistranslated somewhere along with Lucifer!

If that is all that we disagree on that can't be all bad! I have had worse contentions with people!

The short of it is, I think Tony N is reading too much into some metaphors that compare the physical and spiritual aspects of mankind. It is highly similar to a conversation I am having with Dark Territory in the Mormon forum.

Zagzagel · « **Reply #39 on:** November 25, 2005, 04:49:17 PM »

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Let me guess, Geegee, the word "Celestial" is mistranslated somewhere along with Lucifer! If that is all that we disagree on that can't be all bad! I have had worse contentions with people!

Hi, Val. Nope. This has nothing to do with translation. I think that I made my point with you about the translation of the name "lucifer"? It just does not exist. Thats the difference. We can go into this agaiin if you want? But probably not, eh? The contention in this thread has to do with interpretation. That is the difference.

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The short of it is, I think Tony N is reading too much into some metaphors that compare the physical and spiritual aspects of mankind. It is highly similar to a conversation I am having with Dark Territory in the Mormon forum.

How do you think I am doing so far? Can you understand what I am saying? If not, why? If so, tell me what you do understand.

Like I said previously, I will note that Corinthian passage that deals with the resurrection of the BODY. This may be something that you cannot accept...neither Tony....neither Snt.J for that matter!!!! But in all this, I may be wrong in my understanding (interpretation) of what the NT writers were trying to convey to their audience.

Author Topic: Celestial (heavenly) destiny same as Earthly destiny? (Read 22865 times)