Topic: God chose you before you were born AND didn't choose some (Read 3872 times)

Tony N · « **on:** October 26, 2005, 02:01:15 PM »

I noticed this post was taken off the so-called "Christian" message board and dumped in the "Temporary Archival System." Anyway, since it is truly Christian I thought I'd repost it here just in case some true Christians have a conscience that still works. . .

God chose you before you were born AND didn't choose some

Since God chose you to be believing before you were born or put into practice anything good or bad, does it not stand to reason that if He saved me He must save all?

If torment were eternal (believe me, it isn't) but if torment were eternal and God chose someone to go there before they were even born, how can God be just?

Please, none of this "We can't judge God" crap. Obviously we can for the Scriptures say that Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

How can God overcome when He is found to have less righteousness than the creatures of His making if, indeed, He does choose people to be tortured in flames for eternity before they were even born?

God's whole evangel/gospel is that "He may be just and a justifier . . ." due to having Christ die for humanity. But He cannot be just if He is as diabolical as many perceive Him to be.

Tony N.

----------------------

Heretic replied:

*clap*clap*clap*

Get 'em Tony!

Wholly Polterquist · « **Reply #1 on:** October 26, 2005, 02:34:49 PM »

"You misunderstand. What is being spoken of, are various tones, hues, dyes, stains, laws, scripts, medicines, writings, etc. This is speaking about the product, in question, not the producer. The point of this text, which has become so confusing for so many individuals, is to put a stop to specific ideas, or ideals, that destroy the genuine goodness, morality, self-respect, dignity and proper happiness, of others,with the hope that this can be handled ever so careful, in order that more innocent, individuals do not come in contact with them, and end up getting hurt, or worse. Because the only acceptable sacrifice, for wickedness, is in fact wickedness itself, then it is by far easier, and safer, to stop these toxic ideals, and poisonous mindsets, in their infancies, before, there is an actual issue, or victim."

I hope this is helpful,
Moste Sincerely,
wholly Polterguiste

Zagzagel · « **Reply #2 on:** October 27, 2005, 06:52:24 PM »

The "victim", is of course, is the one who is aliented in his/her own thoughts. This is why God invites all. Some will not understand the "invitation" for the "all". The victim indeed victimizes him/her -self. Thus the truth of God still stands.

valerie · « **Reply #3 on:** October 31, 2005, 05:55:16 PM »

I think Tony has a good question here. I believe in pre-ordination but not pre-destination. I don't believe that God decided who was good or bad and acted accordingly before an individual had a chance to do anything either way. That would be blatantly against God's plan for his children, his greatest gift to us was free agency. Why give us such a great gift only to turn around and say, "You will do evil things, go to this bad place"? No, men are free in this life to choose evil or good for themselves. After this life there will be a judgement based on faithfulness and works.

I believe that men before they came to this world were pre-ordained for works here in this life, such as being a prophet, like Abraham. However, Abraham and all those pre-ordained still have their free agency to decide for themselves if they will follow God or not. It is quite possible that someone ordained to be a prophet decided not to follow God and thus did not become a prophet although he had the potential to become one.

Tony N · « **Reply #4 on:** November 03, 2005, 01:58:30 PM »

Valerie, interesting thoughts.

I'm curious how you understand Romans 9.

Tony

Zagzagel · « **Reply #5 on:** November 03, 2005, 10:34:54 PM »

As Val ponders the question from Tony..

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I believe in pre-ordination but not pre-destination.

You made the point of pre-ordination, but, how does this differ from pre-destination?

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I don't believe that God decided who was good or bad and acted accordingly before an individual had a chance to do anything either way.

This reminds me of the passage, or story, of Jacob and Esau. God didn't wait till either did good or bad, but God already chose before that. This probably leads to what Tony is asking about in that Romans passage.

Tony N · « **Reply #6 on:** November 04, 2005, 09:37:25 AM »

Quote

Quote:
I don't believe that God decided who was good or bad and acted accordingly before an individual had a chance to do anything either way.

This reminds me of the passage, or story, of Jacob and Esau. God didn't wait till either did good or bad, but God already chose before that. This probably leads to what Tony is asking about in that Romans passage.

Geegee, you took the words right out of my keyboard!

Rom 9:10 And not only so , but also Rebecca, having conceived by one--Isaac our father--
Rom 9:11 (for they being not yet born, neither having done anything good or evil, that the purpose of God, according to choice, might remain; not of works, but of Him who is calling,) it was said to her--
Rom 9:12 `The greater shall serve the less;'
Rom 9:13 according as it hath been written, `Jacob I did love, and Esau I did hate.'

Rom 9:14 What, then, shall we say? unrighteousness is with God? let it not be!
Rom 9:15 for to Moses He saith, `I will do kindness to whom I do kindness, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion;'
Rom 9:16 so, then--not of him who is willing, nor of him who is running, but of God who is doing kindness:
Rom 9:17 for the Writing saith to Pharaoh--`For this very thing I did raise thee up, that I might shew in thee My power, and that My name might be declared in all the land;'
Rom 9:18 so, then, to whom He willeth, He doth kindness, and to whom He willeth, He doth harden.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say, then, to me, `Why yet doth He find fault? for His counsel who hath resisted?'

And let us not forget that it is God that makes the vessels, the humans to be vessels of honor/dishonor. They don't make themselves dishonorable. God makes them that way. But should ET be true, this would involve God in a most dispicable doing. But Paul leads up to Romans 11:32 so God is justified in what He does with that which is His.

Tony
http://www.saviour-of-all.org

valerie · « **Reply #7 on:** November 04, 2005, 01:32:43 PM »

Let's see, Romans 9...yes, Jacob and Esau, interesting story.

I think you are not hearing what is being said, but there are diverse interpretations. Let me give you mine.

We know that Jacob became or was renamed Israel. Biblically, God's chosen people were born through this lineage. Why? Because Jacob was foreordained to be that Patriarch. Why? Probably has something to do with who Jacob was before he came to Earth, of which we can only guess. Why not Esau? Same reason as the previous question. Could Jacob have rejected this calling? Yes, but he didn't. Could Esau have been loved by God? Yes, but he obviously did something that God didn't like.

Paul is speaking about the lineage of Israel, God's chosen people. How, those who become Gods children through a faith etc. are adopted into the lineage of Israel. See verses 7-8. Then he goes on to talk about the forordination of Jacob as you have outlined in your post. Verses 11-12 talk about Jacob as being the foreordained Patriach of Gods children, that is how the elder shall serve the younger. It really has little to do with the actuality of Esau serving Jacob and more to do with Jacob's lineage being the children of God and that those who are not of that lineage, by at least adoption, will serve them.

Then Paul goes on to talk about the Gentiles and how they too will become the children of Israel through adoption, of sorts. Versus 25-26 speak of this "I will call them my people, which are not my people". The Gentiles are not literal descendants of Israel, obviously, but they may become heirs to the blessings given to Israel through faith in Jesus Christ.

The last few versus outline why God has allowed this to occur, versus 30-33. The Israelites were guilty of not following God's law, they stumbled. The Gentiles were becoming faithful people.

All of this is related to Gods promise to Abraham that his seed should be a numerous as the sands of the sea. As far as we know, Abraham only had two sons. With living conditions what they were at the time and all of the other hosts of people on the Earth it probably seemed like a pretty bold promise for God to make. However, when you look at it in terms of his seed being the people who believe in Jesus Christ then it seems more probable.

The potter and the clay verse is interesting as well. It is true that God can MAKE us be something but he would never do that. He gave us agency. The greatest offering we can give God IS our agency. When we offer our will/agency to him, by doing what he asks of us, then he can make of us great people. He will help up fulfill our potential.

valerie · « **Reply #8 on:** November 04, 2005, 01:48:32 PM »

Let me continue for a little while longer, I apologize for the length of my posts. This is just a very good topic!

Geegee asked what the difference was between pre-ordination and pre-destination. Pre-ordination is sort of like being offered a job based on your qualifications. You can decide for yourself whether or not to take the jobe. Pre-destination is something akin to you are going to be a carpenter because you are talented in that area not because you actually want to. You have no choice, agency is gone.

I must ellaborate on something. To understand the qualifications part of this you have to believe in a period of existence before we (people in general) came to this Earth. Before you were born where were you? Did you exist? Did you learn, love, grow, have happiness? My answer to those questions would be yes. There is no other way to explain foreordination or pre-ordination. There must have been some reason why God would decide say Abraham would make a great prophet. It was because Abraham existed before he was born. He displayed, to God, through his learning, loving, intelligence etc. that he would be a good candidate. So God maybe said, "Abraham you have the talents. When you are on Earth I will make you a prophet if you want it."

This also explains why some people are more receptive to hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ than others. Before they were here they were already strong beleivers in the mission of Jesus Christ. For others, more cerebral, it takes more time. More analytical convincing for them to believe.

Zagzagel · « **Reply #9 on:** November 05, 2005, 08:18:19 PM »

Cool. Thanks for your responses, Val. BUT, what IF I, or anyone else, were to prove you wrong? What proof would you require? What would satifsy you that you or your LDS teaching were contrary to the NT at this point concerning Predestination or Preordination? Would you say, "oh well, just a matter of interpretation?" How do we know what is truth when looking at scripture...comparing scipture with scripture?

valerie · « **Reply #10 on:** November 06, 2005, 06:01:52 AM »

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what IF I, or anyone else, were to prove you wrong? What proof would you require? What would satifsy you that you or your LDS teaching were contrary to the NT at this point concerning Predestination or Preordination? Would you say, "oh well, just a matter of interpretation?"

Well, I seriously doubt you coupld prove it but if you want to try I cannot stop you! There really is nothing that would satisfy me as contrary to what I believe. However, I am always willing to logically consider a point even if I don't believe it. I may just say it is a matter for interpretation because most of the time it is, sorry if that causes you concern.

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How do we know what is truth when looking at scripture...comparing scipture with scripture?

That is exactly part of my point in the personal revelation thread. I think we can know the truth in scriptures. I think it only comes through personal revelation and study. You must look at many sources, hear many opinions, study all that you can on subject. Formulate a possible truth in your mind and take that possible truth to God in prayer. If you trully seek the truth, he will make it known to you.

Zagzagel · « **Reply #11 on:** November 22, 2005, 10:35:13 PM »

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Well, I seriously doubt you coupld prove it but if you want to try I cannot stop you! There really is nothing that would satisfy me as contrary to what I believe. However, I am always willing to logically consider a point even if I don't believe it. I may just say it is a matter for interpretation because most of the time it is, sorry if that causes you concern.

I think that is my point!

I am not really too concerned about that. We all believe something because we just want to believe it. Some have facts to support a belief, others don't, others think they have facts, etc. To me, it all boils down to interpretation and understanding. But those things are based, or should be based on a foundation. You have a foundation which you built your house on, so do I, and so do others.

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I think we can know the truth in scriptures. I think it only comes through personal revelation and study. You must look at many sources, hear many opinions, study all that you can on subject. Formulate a possible truth in your mind and take that possible truth to God in prayer. If you trully seek the truth, he will make it known to you.

That sounds fine. Then lets test it, shall we? Are you up to that?

First question. You believe that God PREDESTINED because we existed prior to coming to earth? Is that a part of Mormon teaching? We will get into PRE-ORDINATION later...Okay?

valerie · « **Reply #12 on:** November 24, 2005, 01:45:37 PM »

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First question. You believe that God PREDESTINED because we existed prior to coming to earth? Is that a part of Mormon teaching? We will get into PRE-ORDINATION later...Okay?

The other way around, I believe in pre-ordination not predestination. Predestination takes away free agency which is counter to God's plan. I believe in it not because we existed prior to coming to Earth but because the scriptures speak of it. Existence before Earth life simply provides a basis from which to work from. If we didn't exist before we were born then there couldn't be any pre-ordination because there was no "pre" part to existence. To believe in pre-ordiantion implies a belief in pre-existence.

These are my words of course but it is how I understand Mormon doctrine at this point! I am always learning!

TheAtheistHeratic · « **Reply #13 on:** November 29, 2005, 04:06:18 PM »

Zagzagel · « **Reply #14 on:** November 29, 2005, 07:04:51 PM »

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The other way around, I believe in pre-ordination not predestination. Predestination takes away free agency which is counter to God's plan. I believe in it not because we existed prior to coming to Earth but because the scriptures speak of it. Existence before Earth life simply provides a basis from which to work from. If we didn't exist before we were born then there couldn't be any pre-ordination because there was no "pre" part to existence. To believe in pre-ordiantion implies a belief in pre-existence.

Okay. You believe that it is the other way around. That is perfectly fine with me. I can work with that!!

What interests in me at this point, quite honestly, is the determining factor of either word which is "pre". PRE - can be loaded. It kind of give the idea that things have been set. Never mind the word "destination" or "ordination". This "pre" is troublesome whether it is connected with other words. What do you make of it?

valerie · « **Reply #15 on:** November 29, 2005, 08:13:41 PM »

I think "pre" just means before this Earth life since we tend to view things from our Earthly perspective.

What is with you, TheAtheistHeratic? You keep

replying to my posts.

Zagzagel · « **Reply #16 on:** November 29, 2005, 09:02:22 PM »

IWhat is with you, TheAtheistHeratic? You keep replying to my posts.
_________________

LOL. You just might get another...

At any rate, VAl. I really have come to respect you. You are someone quite easy to converse with, and you at most time make an attempt to make it quite comfortable.

Give me a couple of days to get back to this thread. I will try and make things clearer...or you will make things more clearer to me!!

There is a thread that needs much of my attention at this point....and one which I have delayed on. Time for me to step up in all threads. Talk to you later, MY FRIEND.

Zagzagel · « **Reply #17 on:** January 14, 2006, 10:04:36 PM »

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Predestination takes away free agency which is counter to God's plan.

Man alive, I can't believe it took me so long to get back into this thread. Anyways, time to pick up where I left off...where was that again??

Val. There are some scriptures that use the word, or speak of this "predestination" idea. Acts 4:27-28 for example. What do you make of the congregations prayer?

G.

(Tony, you can answer this too if you want)

Rabbitball · « **Reply #18 on:** March 24, 2008, 09:46:44 PM »

Quote from: Tony N on October 26, 2005, 02:01:15 PM

God chose you before you were born AND didn't choose some

Since God chose you to be believing before you were born or put into practice anything good or bad, does it not stand to reason that if He saved me He must save all?

You're stepping into a theological hornets' nest here. I can't say for certain that my answer will be in line with everyone else's, but I have one.

God is not in our timeline. Everything to him is present. What we do now is in God's "present time". Everything we have done is in God's "present time". And everything we will do is in God's "present time". So if God wants to know what will happen tomorrow, he knows, as it is "present" to him.

God gave us the chance at salvation. By his foreknowledge, he knew who would take it and who wouldn't. So why didn't he just create those who would take it? Again, it's foreknowledge. If he doesn't create my grandfather, I don't exist. The foreknowledge of me being saved is a mitigating factor in favor of creating a grandfather who doesn't. (Not that I know what happened; this is an example.)

Quote from: Tony N on October 26, 2005, 02:01:15 PM

If torment were eternal (believe me, it isn't) but if torment were eternal and God chose someone to go there before they were even born, how can God be just?

God chose to give us free will. Without free will, there is no free choice to love God. But with free will comes the capacity not to choose, and with foreknowledge, God knows who will take which path. So by allowing someone to be created, God knows what they will do "before" they are born. ("Before" is in quotes because everything is in God's "present".)

Quote from: Tony N on October 26, 2005, 02:01:15 PM

How can God overcome when He is found to have less righteousness than the creatures of His making if, indeed, He does choose people to be tortured in flames for eternity before they were even born?

Remember, there is no true before with God. God created people who he knew would reject him based on factors we may never know. Some of those seem to be based on who gets saved. It may be that the impetus to getting someone saved was someone's bad example, who knows?

Quote from: Tony N on October 26, 2005, 02:01:15 PM

God's whole evangel/gospel is that "He may be just and a justifier . . ." due to having Christ die for humanity. But He cannot be just if He is as diabolical as many perceive Him to be.

Tony N.

If a million people have to reject the gospel in order to find one who is saved, is it worth it? Apparently God thinks so...

Zagzagel · « **Reply #19 on:** November 02, 2008, 08:02:28 PM »

In the truest answer of the question.. who does know the mind of God? It is the spirit of god.

This is a confounding thread.. It has been debated for eons. There are multiple threads that can be added to this one.

Do I know the mind of God? Nope. I only hope I do. Paul mentioned in one of his letters too that he wants us to believe that he knows the mind of God.. and he hopes he does. I am thankful that he wrote it that way thus leaving room for our own convictions.

I think that God is truly just, right, honest, pure, etc.. everything not human (if I may say that in that way) But part of the problem is that God created us human to portray him.

I guess this will be a discussion that will never get a satisfactory answer? It's still good to talk about it though. One never knows how the weight of an arguement will shift them.

Author Topic: God chose you before you were born AND didn't choose some (Read 3872 times)