The proper translation of what we generally call "Hell" is actually "Hinnom." This, as I understand it, is a valley in which Jews set fire to their garbage, or something of that sort. The imagery used by Jesus is that of a very disgraceful destruction by fire. There was not a real word for this kind of thing at the time, no "hello-minus-an-O." That word may have modern origins, but it still conveys the idea Jesus was trying to put across better than "Hinnom," since most modern English-speakers don't know that particular bit of symbolism.

Simply put, the word "hello-minus-an-O" is modern and perhaps pagan, but the concept behind it is biblical indeed.

But this point brings the whole aion/olam debate into it and... I just don't really feel like going into that again.

The concept of a fiery and eternal judgement is not pagan, gee, it's biblical. It's the word used for it that's modern.

Can you give evidence that the early church did not believe in eternal punishment? Are there any universalist church fathers? If not, well...

FWIW, as far as I know, SSS is as right as you are, gee.

I disagree with you nojc4me.  We both cannot be right.  The IDEA that sss is defending is that this place/condition is ETERNAL.  I do not believe it is eternal.  There is absolutely no sense in punishing someone forever and ever.  There is no justice and mercy in that practice.

But I do agree with just about everything else that you said.  For I too believe that the judgements of God will be for CORRECTIVE purposes and are TEMPORARY.

Ps.  I do believe that the Roman Catholic got the "purgatory" thought from the book of Macabees.

what is it about hell are you saying is pagan, the concept itself, or how somebody gets there? many religions with belief in hell say that those who do evil go there, while some religions (christianity) say that non-members will go there.

also, if "pagans" believe something, does that make it not true? some people might think the flood story of the bible was copied from babylonian myths; but with further research, you will find myths about the flood in most ancient cultures, even in other corners of the world.

and why don't people believe in dragons? most old cultures have dragon mythology, and we have their skeletons.

DoctorFrog asked/commented:

what is it about hell are you saying is pagan, the concept itself, or how somebody gets there? many religions with belief in hell say that those who do evil go there, while some religions (christianity) say that non-members will go there.

What I am defending here, DF, is whether this concept is found in either the Hebrew or Christian (OT/NT) writings.  It is within those confines that this argument is located.

So any religion that uses these two sources as proof that this is a place  where conscious souls are tormented and pained for eternity is what I am arguing.  Is that more narrowed down and clear?

But to correct you, even within christian circles, there are groups which warn their own members of this place because they believe that their own members can go there too.

also, if "pagans" believe something, does that make it not true? some people might think the flood story of the bible was copied from babylonian myths; but with further research, you will find myths about the flood in most ancient cultures, even in other corners of the world.

Your absolutely right.  Something a 'pagan' believes in can very well be right.  I am not suggesting here that everything the 'pagan' believes is wrong.  This topic is specific and I set the boundaries of my arguments above.  So if there is an argument for the idea of 'eternal torment', then I would like only quotes from the Hebrew or Christian text, or what is normally called the bible.

and why don't people believe in dragons? most old cultures have dragon mythology, and we have their skeletons.

I wasn't going to comment on this because this is off topic...but, why not.  I believe that 'dragon' is mentioned in both the Hebrew and Christian texts.  It is not one area that I am interested in right now.  So let us all try to stay on topic.  Cool?  Good. :D

Welcome to the site, DoctorFrog.

Doc Frog asked:

if "pagans" believe something, does that make it not true?

No. "Havamal" (or a part of it) contains what is claimed to be the "wise sayings of Odin" or "Wodin" of Norse mythology. One of those "wise sayings" is this gem:
"Never sit with your back to the door."
That certainly sounds like a wise bit of advice to me.

And "welcome to the forum," or - if you've been here a while - "nice meeting you."

Does the Hebrew scriptures, or what christians call the OT, speak of an idea of eternal punishment?

Yes, they do--you just have to acknowledge the meaning of aion and olam in the Scriptures!  

Before we got the to the translated word such a "hell" (which was hundreds of years after the scriptures were written) what were those words that the translated word "hell" come from?

The words rendered "hell" in the King James Version are:

Sheol - Hebrew word referring to either a physical grave or to the state or location of the dead in the afterlife, depending on context.

Hades - Greek equivalent of sheol; it is always used to translate sheol in the Greek Septuagint and in the New Testament.

Tartaroo - Greek word meaning "to cast down to Tartarus," that is, the deepest pit of Hades.

Gehenna - a transliteration of the Hebrew G

SSS, posted

Yes, they do--you just have to acknowledge the meaning of aion and olam in the Scriptures!

Lets be honest.  You know, and I know, that we have both been through this.  You (and another) have said that you are no longer interested in debating what the interpration of what these words mean.  I have said fine, and stated that there are other scriptures which do not include these words which we may debate about.  Now the the story of the "lazarus and the rich man" may be a good starting point to this discussion?  What do you think Jesus is implying in this parable?  (Yes I call it a parable :D )

Sheol - Hebrew word referring to either a physical grave or to the state or location of the dead in the afterlife, depending on context.

Hades - Greek equivalent of sheol; it is always used to translate sheol in the Greek Septuagint and in the New Testament.

Now that you have determined that Hades is the translation of the Hebrew word Shoel, does this speak of it as the grave or the state of the dead in the afterlife?  Can both answers be true?  There are many scriptures in the O/T that say that those who enter the grave/shoel have no conciousness.

Gehenna - a transliteration of the Hebrew G

geegee said:

This will be interesting, nojc4me. Poor fellow, that once upon egyptian ruler, will be alone in whatever you are calling this place of "eternal torment".

I didn't say he'd be "alone." He'd be in the Presence of God the whole "time."
The "torment" he experiences is simply that which is just for his sin, (where I mean "just" as in "fit punishment," and "for his sin" should not be taken to mean "that one sin.")
His punishment is no more than that due a sin of his type, and the ramifications of which caused so much misery and death.
Even so, his lot is better than that of the souls that are snuffed out completely. "The day he dies, his thoughts perish." The pharoah gets Shabbat off, during which he gets to praise God in all His Glory.  
The pharoah couldn't do that if he were snuffed out like those other sinners. I wonder what he did that merited his great reward?

And I will state you are most likely wrong about this.

About what?
That there is a punishment after death, or
That the punishment is temporary (for most of us), or
That the Pharoah is still "there," and/or
That, for him, the "punishment" is "eternal"?

Paul uses him as an example in Romans 9-11.

I didn't know that.
It doesn't matter what Paul taught, because he was an ignoramus, and because he was a sinner who misquoted Scripture for his own ends.

But...is there any other scripture to support what you have propossed?

I don't know about the notion for reincarnation, but the fact that it is a common teaching in Judaism indicated that the supporting argument is conclusive.
For the temporary status of punishment and reward after death, yes, there is supporting evidence for this, too. I don't happen to know where you could find them, though. I mean other than asking your local Orthodox Rabbi, that is.
For the conditions concerning the Pharoah's punishment, the same Orthodox Rabbi could/should be consulted.

Can anyone EARN eternal life?

"Earn" an "afterlife"? No. That comes with the soul. One could LOSE his afterlife, though.
One DOES "earn" his Heavenly Reward, and that's the way it should be.
What is earned is almost always appreciated more than the "free gift" that has not been earned. This fits in nicely with the discussion I am having with another poster over in the "Death Tax" thread. SOME of those on welfare seem to be using it, not as a safety net, but for a hammock. They always seem to be screaming for more and more money and services, such as ever increasing health care, including elective surgery.
They don't value what they have; and they always assume they will value what MORE they can get. They won't.
Likewise the afterlife's reward. If everybody gets the same reward, then the fellow who skated through life worried about himself and nobody else could look at the great righteous woman and laugh at all the "fun" she missed out on.
Justice appears to indicate that the righteous who EARN their reward will appreciate it more, and therefore, their reward is greater than he who merely lucks into it because he didn't murder enough to be snuffed out like a match.
Meanwhile, the righteous who earns his reward will not decry the reward that is received by the not-quite-a-bad-enough-murderer. The righteous person knows that God is Merciful and Beneficient, and here's an example. But more, the righteous person wouldn't second guess God in the first place.

IF so, HOW?

"You shalt love thy neighbor as thyself; I am the LORD" Levi 19:18.
"You shall love your neighbor."  Why? "Because I am God."
The lesson is, God loves us, and God loves our neighbors. We should love our neighbors, because then we will be like God. To be like God is the Greatest Pleasure there is. It's even greater than talking to/with God is!
So, we should strive to be like God in as many ways as we can.
We should feed the hungry, as God served sustenance to Jonah.
We should clothe the naked, as God clothed Adam and Eve.
We should establish courts of Justice, to promote Justice, as God is Just.
Etc.

Where does God's mercy fit into all of this?

Everywhere. We were all told about what we should avoid. Who hasn't been told, "Mind your own business and don't pull on your sister's hair"? What society doesn't know that murder is wrong? Is there a nation that advocates theft as a line of work?
Micah 6:8 He has told thee, O man,
what is good; and what does the L-rd
require of thee, but to do justly, and
to love true loyalty, and to walk humbly
with thy G-d?
Eccles. 12:13 The end of the matter, when
all is said and done: fear G-d, and keep
His Commandments; for that is the
whole duty of man.
"Hashem will not abandon us to his power,
nor will Hashem convict us in His judgment
[of the matter]" Psalms 37:34).

I disagree with point B. I see some mercy in what you are saying, but, I think it more merciful to forgive and find some way to grant LIFE.

There is something to this, because God says, "I do not DESIRE the death of the sinner, but that he turn away from his sin and LIVE."
The thing is, in those cases, the sinner DIDN'T repent and turn away from his sins, so there is a problem.

Is such a thing short of Gods abilities?

If I thought you were baiting me...
The very IDEA of something WE seem to think is "right" being "short of God's abilities"!
The problem is not with God, but with US!
Rule 1: If we sin, we bear the responsibilities for the sin.
Rule 2: If we repent, we can mitigate or nullify the punishment.
Rule 3: If we do not repent, see rule 1.

Are there any universalist church fathers? If not, well...

Yes.  Origen for one.
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