bobf asked:

Since you don't believe punishment to be everlasting for anyone except pharoah than what do you make of Daniel 12:2?

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

First, let me remind you that Daniel's book is NOT a book of prophecy, and even if it were, would not overrule what we have heard from Moses, who was the GREATEST prophet of God, and the Torah states that explicitly.
Now, I have no ability to say I know what Daniel means there, and some of the words of Daniel were "shut up" and the explanations not given even to Daniel. The 4th verse of that chapter says, "and knowledge will increase."
We may just have to wait.

Yes, I agree with your point that the words were sealed by God.  That is one of the reasons I brought up the verse and you are the first person who ever reponded that way by noticing that the words are shut up and not intended to be understood for a time.

Whatever those words mean, Daniel himself did not even understand them.  He could not because God sealed the words.  No one else could understand them either.  God intended for none to understand until the end times and when only some would understand.  Also later Daniel asks "what will be the final outcome of these events" showing that he did not consider the events described to be a final outcome.  Nor did God correct him by saying He already gave Daniel the final outcome (even though "everlasting life and everlasting contempt" are THE final outcome according to most Christains).

I'm curious.  Do you have some speicific words of Moses in mind when you said that Daniel could not be overruling them.

Hey njc,
If by Moshe you mean "Moses"? and I am curious why as you posted:

There was no barrier that he did not
penetrate, no physical limitation that hindered
him, and no imperfection large or small [to
impede him]. In achieving this [level], he lost his
sensual and imaginative faculties; his drives and desires
ceased, leaving only his pure intellect. Concerning this it is said
that Moshe communicated with God without any angelic
intermediary.

How it was that Moses lost his temper, and smote the rock more than what God told him to? And why did Moses marry a black woman, a Cupoo-pooe (Cush meaning black) and I'm sure he had sex when he wanted to or he'd have had one mean Queen Latifa on his hands.

He didn't make it into the promised land 'cause he screwed up.

I don't mean to belittle him. After all, God used him in a mighty way.

I wonder why people think that those Israelites that didn't make it into the promised land have been in he11 ever since but don't think Moses is "down" there? Of course the true Messiah of Israel (Jesus Christ) and His disciples were shown a vision on the mount where Moses and Elijah were speaking with Christ. So if there's hope for Moses then surely there's hope for all those that didn't make it in.

Tony

TonyN asked:

By "Moshe" you mean "Moses"?

Yes. You see, "Moses" is actually a word that we call a "transliteration." The man's actual name was "Moshe," and that's according to the Hebrew he spoke. When the Scriptures were translated into Greek, and then into Latin, and then into you-name-it, the names sometimes got mangled. In fact, I recall a bible of my mom's that gave the name of the father of Ham, Shem and Japeth as "Noe" when the man's REAL name is best transliterated as "Noach." I often prefer to use the real name as the Text has it rather than an Anglicized (which means "adapted for and by English-speaking people") version. Many people do, even in their private and public lives, outside a religious forum. Keeps confusion down when people in Madrid mention having once been in "Casablanca." Do they mean the locale of the famous movie of the same name, or do they mean "The White House," which is what "Casa Blanca" means when it's translated? So we all accept that Casablanca is over there, on that side of the Atlantic, while the White House is over here.
We have the Original Hebrew Text, so there's no need, nor should there be any desire, to take all those unnecessary intermediate steps; we can simply consult the Source Document. [Cuts down on nasty mistranslations and obfuscations of those other translations, too. For example, many christians (per)versions of the christian "old testament" Psalms has the 2nd Psalm supposedly reading "kiss the Son" when the actual Hebrew says "embrace purity." That's a mistranslation. The christians INTENTIONALLY mistranslate the words so as to make the Psalm appear to be advocating the idolatry of worshipping the god-man and false messiah, jesus, the so-called "son of (a) god". The so-called "virgin bearing a son" is an intentional mistranslation as well. As for obfuscations, the book of the christian "old testament" are arranged differently that in the Jewish Bibles, partly so as to obscure facts (such as the fulfillment of the Isaiah 7:14 prophecy in the lifetime of Isaiah); partly to attempt to promote incorrect notions (such as suggesting the Book of Daniel to be a work of prophecies when it's not, by placing it among the Books of actual prophets of Israel as opposed to "Writings", where it's placed in Jewish Bibles); and partly due to the widespread and well-known ignorance of the church fathers, rather than deceit.
There may be other reasons for the inferiority of christian versions of the Jewish Bible as compared to the actual Jewish Bible, but these are sufficient for now.]
So, word to the wise: always check with the Source Document.
Anyway, back to Moses. He's often called, "Moshe Rabbeinu," which means, "Moshe, our (Great?) Rabbi." "Rabbi" means "teacher."
[*whew!* that's a LOT of Hebrew!]

Tony N said:

Deu 18:15 A Prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, shall Yahweh your Elohim raise up for you. To Him shall you hearken.

Jesus is that man that they were to hearken to whether you like it or not.

False, and you are about to know it.
J.C. was nothing like Moses.
Moses was born of a man and his wife; whereas J.C. was a bastard of a man's wife and someone other than her husband. The husband wasn't the father of the child.
Moses had a natural birth, whereas J.C. was supposedly conceived by a hokey spook seducing a virgin.
Moses was a man, whereas J.C. was some kind of man/god hybrid.
Moses was a prophet of the G-d of Israel, whereas J.C. spoke in the name of the false god of evil, the Devil.
Moses admitted and repented of his sins; whereas J.C. never did either.
Moses led his brother and his friends out of bondage in Egypt; whereas J.C. refused to entertain his brothers, and his friends were often berated by J.C.
The passage in Deut 18:15-18 refers to a prophet, "navi" whereas J.C. was supposedly a king messiah.
Moses was endorced by G-d before the entire nation of Israel, but J.C. was not.
In short, there's no comparison.

Now, as to who should and should not be listened to, try this on for size.
If you open a Bible at Deut 13 and start reading from verse 2, it states: "If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and he giveth thee a sign or a wonder, [3], And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, 'Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;'" etc. Now, we can see immediately that Moses is talking about a false prophet. A prophet who gives signs and wonders which do come to pass. Anyone who is familiar with the gospels knows that many miracles, signs and wonders are recorded therein. Miracles, signs and wonders performed by Cheezis. And these signs and wonders were given that men might believe in him, and accept him as their messiah. What is more, in the gospels we learn that Cheezis, particularly in John's gospel, makes himself out to be a god! And it is from such verses that Crosstianity have erred in believing Cheezis, not only to be a man, but to be a god/man, a god who was incarnated into flesh. Here we learn from Moses that if this dreamer of dreams giveth a sign or a wonder, and even if this sign or wonder that he gives comes to pass, not to hearken to him, not to listen to him for he is a false prophet and his message is to entice the people to go after other gods. Cheezis wanted men to come after him, who he believed of himself as being a god in the flesh.

 How do we know that this verse from Moses is referring to Cheezis, and not to some other false prophet? Look at Deuteronomy 13 once again and this time at verse 7. 13:7 "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;' " Notice, it doesn't say, "if thy brother, the son of thy father". Now, Cheezis claims to have had no Earthly father, so he is in fact but 'a son of a mother' and that passage of scriptures goes on to say what must be done to such a person. And it is clear from history, or at least the history recorded in the gospels, if that can be called 'history', relates that that is what happened to Cheezis.

13:4 "Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the L-rd your G-d proveth you, to know whether ye love the L-rd your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul. 13:5 Ye shall walk after the L-rd your G-d, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. 13:6 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the L-rd your G-d, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the L-rd thy G-d commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee."

Deuteronomy 18:20 Conversely, if a prophet presumptuously makes a declaration in My name when I have not commanded him to do so, or if he speaks in the name of other gods, then that prophet shall die.' 18:21 You may ask yourselves, 'How shall we recognize that a declaration was not spoken by God?' 18:22 If the prophet predicts something in God's name, and the prediction does not materialize or come true, then the message was not spoken by God. That prophet has spoken deceitfully, and you must not fear him.

Matt 5:39 contradicts Deut 17:7; 19:19; 21:21; 22:21, 24; 24:7. Matt 16:28. is a False Prophecy. Luke 4:21. J.C. does not say what exactly was fulfilled. See Isaiah 61:1-6. That may be why the Jews were angry enough to try to put him to death. Luke 4:28-30. Mt 24:2. Ever seen the Western Wall? How high is that wall? How long has it been there? Mt 24:30-34, and see the verses from Mt 24:3-33. The whole pasage is a false prophecy, and verse 34 is what makes it so we can know it's a false prophecy. Verse 3 says that J.C. was addressing his disciples in private, and that they would see these events before they died. He lied. Mt 26:13. The woman was not named in Matt's gospel, so how could she be remembered because of her actions? Lu 23:43 And J. said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." THAT day, J.C. died, and according to the Little Book of Lies, for the next 1-and-a-half to 3 days, was in either the tomb, or Hell (or whereever), freeing the "prisoners" held there (see Ephesians 4:9), before he was resurrected back to EARTH, and didn't go to heaven until 40 DAYS LATER! Jn 7:8-10 Jo 7:8 "'Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come.' [7:9] When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee. [7:10] But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret." These verses prove J.C. lied, at least to his own disciples. He could have simple uttered a self-fulfilling "prophecy," ("I'm not going to this feast") AND THEN NOT GO! In stead, he lied, and went anyhow! Certainly, it is known that Jc was a false prophet, as according to Deut 18:20, 22.

Bit of advice: you should always seek out the Source Document, and read that, before you try to convince others to see things your way. Then look for any other passages that might possibly refer to the same person, place, or subject matter. In Short: Do your research! That way, you avoid saying such silly things as you did here.
But you go ahead and say whatever foolishness you want it - it makes it more fun for me to correct you.
By the way, I cut and pasted these passages from my files, so that's why you see "Cheesis" and such-like.

Nojc wrote

J.C. was nothing like Moses.

Now what did Moses mean when he said "like"?  Is it really everything you are implying?  I wonder if Moses would be agreeable with you.

geegee said:

Now what did Moses mean when he said "like"?

"A prophet from your midst, from your brethren, LIKE ME."
So I would say he meant another Israelite, the son of Israelites.

Is it really everything you are implying? I wonder if Moses would be agreeable with you.

Not sure I understand you, but I can say with a certainty that Moses wouuld agree that the jesus of the new testament was no prophet of the God of Israel, and that if he was as he is described in the new testament to have been, then he WAS a false prophet.

Thanks, nojc4me.

You said it as you would.  It seems that this will end the dialogue of this part of the questions.  Your answer is not viewed as a "snippet" by me for you told me where you stand.  I will now await to see if anyone else will challenge the previous discussion before I move on to the original reason for this thread.  (but really folks, I don't mind where this thing goes :D )