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Author Topic: Two Voices Crying in the Wilderness of Christianity  (Read 1462 times)

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Tony N

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Two Voices Crying in the Wilderness of Christianity
« on: November 13, 2005, 05:24:59 AM »

Thomas Allin wrote:
"The popular creed presents us with a Being who fluctuates between tenderness and wrath: One who has ever-changing plans, and a will that is divided, and baffled. For half His creatures, His love is in fact momentary and His vengeance eternal. For the other half, His pity is eternal and dHis wrath transient. This God is not even Lord in His own house; for the worst and feeblest of His creatures can defeat His most cherished plan; can paralyze the Cross of Christ. In such a God I can see no trace of Him who is almighty and unchanging, whose property is to always have mercy; whose love, tho it must take the form of vengeance against sin, never ceases to pursue the sinners for 'love never faileth'; never to all eternity. Against the popular caricature of God, this . . . is a special protest--that caricature which represents eternal love as turning to hate as soon as the sinner dies; which vainly talks of an Eternal Father, whose judgments mean salvation in one world and change to d--nation in the next; of eternal love, whose fire purifies and refines in time and then beyond the grave turns to mere (purposeless) torture. All this is not alone morally repulsive, but a plain contradiction in terms."

Thomas Erskine wonderfully wrote:
"Hence the painful evasions; the manifold sophistry; the halting logic that (honestly) turns the Bible upside down; i.e., teaching that all men are drawn to Christ means half mankind drawn to the devil; all things reconciled through Christ means the final perdition of half the universe. The notion, which is in fact that of the popular creed, i.e., that God is in the Bible detailing the story of His own defeat, is telling how sin has proved too strong for Him; this notion is worse than absurd. Assuredly the Bible is not the story of sin deepening into eternal ruin--of creation darkened forever by a ghastly hell--of God's own Son worsted in His utmost effort. It is from the opening to the close the story of grace stronger than sin--of life victorious over every form of death--of God triumphing over evil."
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Did God say that He "will have all mankind to be saved" or that He "will NOT have all mankind to be saved? (1Tim.2:4-6]
Did God say He IS the Saviour of all mankind, or that He "is NOT the Saviour of all mankind? (1Tim.4:10)


Well?
Are we told to "charge and teach these things" or are we told "NOT to charge and teach these things"? (1Tim.4:10,11).


Well? Are we?

Tony N

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Two Voices Crying in the Wilderness of Christianity
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2005, 08:52:40 AM »

I'm just curious how the Christian answers to what Thomas Allin and Thomas Erskine perceive to be the logical conclusion of the beliefs held by Christendom.

Anybody?

Tony
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Did God say that He "will have all mankind to be saved" or that He "will NOT have all mankind to be saved? (1Tim.2:4-6]
Did God say He IS the Saviour of all mankind, or that He "is NOT the Saviour of all mankind? (1Tim.4:10)


Well?
Are we told to "charge and teach these things" or are we told "NOT to charge and teach these things"? (1Tim.4:10,11).


Well? Are we?

Tony N

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Two Voices Crying in the Wilderness of Christianity
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2005, 09:54:10 PM »

The silence here is deafening.
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Did God say that He "will have all mankind to be saved" or that He "will NOT have all mankind to be saved? (1Tim.2:4-6]
Did God say He IS the Saviour of all mankind, or that He "is NOT the Saviour of all mankind? (1Tim.4:10)


Well?
Are we told to "charge and teach these things" or are we told "NOT to charge and teach these things"? (1Tim.4:10,11).


Well? Are we?

Tony N

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Two Voices Crying in the Wilderness of Christianity
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2005, 11:52:11 AM »

If we ignore Tony, maybe he'll just go away.
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Did God say that He "will have all mankind to be saved" or that He "will NOT have all mankind to be saved? (1Tim.2:4-6]
Did God say He IS the Saviour of all mankind, or that He "is NOT the Saviour of all mankind? (1Tim.4:10)


Well?
Are we told to "charge and teach these things" or are we told "NOT to charge and teach these things"? (1Tim.4:10,11).


Well? Are we?

Anthony Horvath

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Two Voices Crying in the Wilderness of Christianity
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2005, 04:46:30 PM »

I'm amazed that a man in possession of such fine good news and stellar reasoning wishes only to discourse with Christians.  Surely on a forum such as this one you could find some non-Christians to share it with?

Is there in particular reason why you are single minded in your efforts to convert Christians to your POV?  Is there something about your POV that makes you only evangelize Christians and utterly ignore the many non-Christians running around this here forum?
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Tony N

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Two Voices Crying in the Wilderness of Christianity
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2005, 05:35:52 PM »

I'm just trying to save the Christians who have taken the modern gospel hook line and sinker from the dark gloom they find themselves in. Is that such a horrible goal?

What amazes me is that you can't even take the time to go over the post that started this thread and write about it. Instead you immediately try to hijack the thread into another direction.

Nice try. I'm not taking the bate though.

So, what have you to say about what Thomas Allin and Thomas Erskine wrote?

Tony
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Did God say that He "will have all mankind to be saved" or that He "will NOT have all mankind to be saved? (1Tim.2:4-6]
Did God say He IS the Saviour of all mankind, or that He "is NOT the Saviour of all mankind? (1Tim.4:10)


Well?
Are we told to "charge and teach these things" or are we told "NOT to charge and teach these things"? (1Tim.4:10,11).


Well? Are we?

Zagzagel

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Two Voices Crying in the Wilderness of Christianity
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2005, 06:21:33 PM »

Hey, Tony.  I've been waiting with interest.  But didn't you know that these fellows aren't repudiatable?  They aren't recognizable within the cirles of scholarship?  Okay..a cheap shot..but isn't that the way scholars think at times?  LOL.
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Anthony Horvath

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Two Voices Crying in the Wilderness of Christianity
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2005, 06:54:05 PM »

"I'm just trying to save the Christians who have taken the modern gospel hook line and sinker from the dark gloom they find themselves in. Is that such a horrible goal?"

I know of few Christians who are of the sort you describe.

"What amazes me is that you can't even take the time to go over the post that started this thread and write about it."

I read it.

"Instead you immediately try to hijack the thread into another direction."

Oh come on.  You're sitting there whining:  "No one is talking to me....waaaaaaaaaaah"  How can you hijack a thread that's already going nowhere?  lololol  Maybe no one is interested in your topic?

I think the fact that you have only eyes for the Christian community reveals the poverty of your position.  Instead of getting out there and sharing with nonChristians this awesome 'good news' you target Christians.  And yet, your position holds that both Christians and nonChristians will be saved.  

hmmmmm.  Boy, I bet I just put my finger on it.  The reason why you target Christians is because they are the only ones likely to care, even if it is in the negative.  Non-Christians aren't interested for the obvious reason that if what you are saying is true, no action or even further thought is required.   At least Christians will talk with you- if only because they disagree with you.

Of course, I feel about the same way as the non-Christians.  I think you're wrong, and from my POV, if I am right, your view is dangerous.  But if I am wrong and you're right, then wooptee do.  No action or even further thought is required- unless you think that my views as a Christian someone amount to eternal harm?  Is that your view?  Am I in danger of not being saved, Tony?

Might I suggest a broom?  The cobwebs in this thread are making my allergies act up.
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Yesterday's Fav: "I love when it all comes down to semantics, because that usually means I get to pwn someone."  Sir Somebody Something, Deep Truth, Trent, Solaris Paradox

Tony N

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Two Voices Crying in the Wilderness of Christianity
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2005, 04:38:03 AM »

Dear Sntjohnny and all pagan Christians, please re-read this and tell me what you think about it.

What exactly do you think it wrong with Allin's and Erskine's ideas about God? about what they think of how Christendom perceives God and His ways?

Thomas Allin wrote:
"The popular creed presents us with a Being who fluctuates between tenderness and wrath: One who has ever-changing plans, and a will that is divided, and baffled. For half His creatures, His love is in fact momentary and His vengeance eternal. For the other half, His pity is eternal and dHis wrath transient. This God is not even Lord in His own house; for the worst and feeblest of His creatures can defeat His most cherished plan; can paralyze the Cross of Christ. In such a God I can see no trace of Him who is almighty and unchanging, whose property is to always have mercy; whose love, tho it must take the form of vengeance against sin, never ceases to pursue the sinners for 'love never faileth'; never to all eternity. Against the popular caricature of God, this . . . is a special protest--that caricature which represents eternal love as turning to hate as soon as the sinner dies; which vainly talks of an Eternal Father, whose judgments mean salvation in one world and change to d--nation in the next; of eternal love, whose fire purifies and refines in time and then beyond the grave turns to mere (purposeless) torture. All this is not alone morally repulsive, but a plain contradiction in terms."

Thomas Erskine wonderfully wrote:
"Hence the painful evasions; the manifold sophistry; the halting logic that (honestly) turns the Bible upside down; i.e., teaching that all men are drawn to Christ means half mankind drawn to the devil; all things reconciled through Christ means the final perdition of half the universe. The notion, which is in fact that of the popular creed, i.e., that God is in the Bible detailing the story of His own defeat, is telling how sin has proved too strong for Him; this notion is worse than absurd. Assuredly the Bible is not the story of sin deepening into eternal ruin--of creation darkened forever by a ghastly hell--of God's own Son worsted in His utmost effort. It is from the opening to the close the story of grace stronger than sin--of life victorious over every form of death--of God triumphing over evil."
Logged
Did God say that He "will have all mankind to be saved" or that He "will NOT have all mankind to be saved? (1Tim.2:4-6]
Did God say He IS the Saviour of all mankind, or that He "is NOT the Saviour of all mankind? (1Tim.4:10)


Well?
Are we told to "charge and teach these things" or are we told "NOT to charge and teach these things"? (1Tim.4:10,11).


Well? Are we?

valerie

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Two Voices Crying in the Wilderness of Christianity
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2005, 07:40:14 AM »

Am I included in "all pagan Christians" since no on here recognizes me or any Mormon as such?

Allin and Erskine...I can see both of their points.  The Bible often does seem contradictory but I don't think it is God rather man that is contradictory in his perception of God.
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Tony N

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Two Voices Crying in the Wilderness of Christianity
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2005, 11:10:30 AM »

Valerie, if you worship a god for fear of being tortured eternally in flames, then, what is different between that and a pagan?

There are some Mormons who are Christian, you know.  [smile
Just as not all Christians are true Christians, there are some Christians who are Christian.

But it is nice that you are one of the rare ones that spoke your mind on this matter and for that, my hat is off to you.

The Bible is contradictory only if the concept of eternality is injected into its holy pages for the Greek words Aion/Aionion.  Young's Literal does not do that.
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Did God say that He "will have all mankind to be saved" or that He "will NOT have all mankind to be saved? (1Tim.2:4-6]
Did God say He IS the Saviour of all mankind, or that He "is NOT the Saviour of all mankind? (1Tim.4:10)


Well?
Are we told to "charge and teach these things" or are we told "NOT to charge and teach these things"? (1Tim.4:10,11).


Well? Are we?

valerie

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Two Voices Crying in the Wilderness of Christianity
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2005, 12:11:23 PM »

Quote
There are some Mormons who are Christian, you know.  
Just as not all Christians are true Christians, there are some Christians who are Christian.

Can I add that to the Mormons aren't Christians thread?  That is exactly what I have been saying for the past couple of weeks but you're the first to admit to feeling the same way. :smt041 Perhaps I just didn't say it as well as you did.

Quote
Valerie, if you worship a god for fear of being tortured eternally in flames, then, what is different between that and a pagan?

No, I don't worship God or any god for fear of being tortured eternally.  I guess then I am not a pagan either!

Out of curiosity...what is your take on the quotes you posted?
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nojc4me

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Two Voices Crying in the Wilderness of Christianity
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2005, 09:58:28 PM »

"... of God triumphing over evil."

Why should He have to? He is the God of evil - and evil serves His purpose. Why should he need to triumph over Himself?
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"You Take jesus, I'll Take God" - Sam Levine
"The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" - Robert Heinlein
"Hope" - Aaron Zelman & L. Neil Smith
"The Probability Broach" - L. Neil Smith
"Wizard's First Rule" - Terry Goodkind (Check out the rest of the series, too.)
"The Constitution of the United States" - input from various American Statesmen (Read that as "Old, wealthy white men, now dead, who were often seen to be wearing wigs and hose in public.")
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