Topic: What comes out of Christ's death for all mankind? (Read 12746 times)

Tony N · « **Reply #80 on:** February 08, 2006, 09:49:38 AM »

The promise is that through Abraham's SEED the nations of the earth (land) would be blessed.

Paul says that the promise was to be confirmed to those OF THE LAW and those OF THE FAITH of Abraham who is father of those of the law and those not of the law..

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it may accord with grace, for the promise to be confirmed to the entire seed, not to those of the law only, but to those also of the faith of Abraham, who is father of us all,

So the promise to Abraham is a two part promise.
It is a promise to those Israelites Circumcisionists and in the sphere of the new administration under Paul, to those of the nations apart from Israel.

In the first, the nations of the world are blessed through Israel via Abraham's seed during the 1000 year reigh and new earth.

In the latter, the nations of the world are blessed apart from Israel (as Israel is set aside) by Abraham's SEED which is Jesus.

Zagzagel · « **Reply #81 on:** February 08, 2006, 09:47:21 PM »

Step by step answer...let's break it down

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The promise is that through Abraham's SEED the nations of the earth (land) would be blessed.

That SEED is Jesus Christ. We can agree on that of course. So, it is by the promise that the Gentiles will be blessed by this "seed" of Abe. But this not to only the Gentile of course, it also to the Jew according to Pauls writings.

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Paul says that the promise was to be confirmed to those OF THE LAW and those OF THE FAITH of Abraham who is father of those of the law and those not of the law

I see this as an attempt to distinquish a difference from the Jew and Gentile. IF so, no such thought can be found in any of Pauls writings. However, you might be confirming me in what I said earlier...

Lets continue

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Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it may accord with grace, for the promise to be confirmed to the entire seed, not to those of the law only, but to those also of the faith of Abraham, who is father of us all,

So the promise to Abraham is a two part promise.
It is a promise to those Israelites Circumcisionists and in the sphere of the new administration under Paul, to those of the nations apart from Israel.

As I suspected. You are then reading too much into this scripture your own understanding. This is not a "two part promise". It is the opposite. A more careful reading of this scripture does not speak of any "two part promise" at all.

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In the first, the nations of the world are blessed through Israel via Abraham's seed during the 1000 year reigh and new earth.

In the latter, the nations of the world are blessed apart from Israel (as Israel is set aside) by Abraham's SEED which is Jesus.

This scripture doesn't even go into any 1000 year stuff. Again, to much mixing of a foreign idea into that scripture here.

G

Tony N · « **Reply #82 on:** February 09, 2006, 12:16:27 AM »

It actually is a two part promise.
The promise to Israel will be taken up once again as shown in Romans 11.

geegee wrote:
This scripture doesn't even go into any 1000 year stuff. Again, to much mixing of a foreign idea into that scripture here.

Tony's reply:
As Simon on American Idol would say: "That was h--o--r--r--i--b--l--e!"

Rev 20:6 Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years."

Zagzagel · « **Reply #83 on:** February 09, 2006, 09:04:18 AM »

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It actually is a two part promise.
The promise to Israel will be taken up once again as shown in Romans 11.

Where exactly in chapter 11 do you see this two part promise? Are you referring to "all Israel" shall be saved? If so, how is that suppossed to be a two part promise?

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Tony's reply:
As Simon on American Idol would say: "That was h--o--r--r--i--b--l--e!"

Rev 20:6 Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years."

Yabba...dabba...who? lol. I wonder what Simon would think about our conversation? rofl.

My comment was not horrible. I was dealing with the Romans text. And this Rev text does not support your idea either.

G.

Tony N · « **Reply #84 on:** February 10, 2006, 08:24:08 AM »

geegee, what amazes me is this whole thread began with a question about what came out of Jesus Christ's death. It went from that to the Mormons saying Christ died for our sins but we have to believe AND follow His commandments. Then you asked the question about mutilation. And it has gone off the main trail ever since. In fact, you mutilated this thread! Yea, YOU!

Tony wrote:
It actually is a two part promise.
The promise to Israel will be taken up once again as shown in Romans 11.

geegee replied:
Where exactly in chapter 11 do you see this two part promise? Are you referring to "all Israel" shall be saved? If so, how is that suppossed to be a two part promise?

Tony's reply:
Rom 11:25 For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering."
Rom 11:26 And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob."
Rom 11:27 And this is my covenant with them Whenever I should be eliminating their sins.

God has a covenant with Israel, not with the nations as to this. Once the complement of the nations enters they, the nations are taken out. Then when Christ is standing on Mount Zion (Rev.14:1) the covenant is enacted with Israel and then Israel is saved and put back into the olive tree to be the light on the earth.

So far all we see as to what comes out of Christ's sacrifice is that there are two select groups to be saved according to God's pre-selection; those out of the nations and those out of Israel. The group out of the nations gets to go to Disneyland. Those out of Israel get to stay home.

When we go among the celestials (with some, yes, geegee, *some* Jews) we will be part of heading up all in the heavens in Christ (because that is what comes out of Christ's death). Those that don't go to Disneyland, that stay home (on the earth) get to be part of heading up all on the earth in Christ (Eph.1:10).

I know, I know, you don't see it. Maybe you see that when the nations are cut out of the Olive tree when the complement of the nations enters that they somehow remain anyway and so God sets up the covenant with those that are cut out but remain and those that are grafted in after the nations are cut out but remain?

Interesting that Romans 9 thru 11 is all about two groups yet you don't see it.

IronRod · « **Reply #85 on:** February 10, 2006, 08:42:48 AM »

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Interesting that Romans 9 thru 11 is all about two groups yet you don't see it.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Tony, I think that it is you who does not see it. Geegee, sees things alot closer to us Mormons. And I think you are way out there, in your understanding of the scriptures. So, if you will kindly explain what does Rom.10:12 mean, to you?

Joel · « **Reply #86 on:** February 10, 2006, 03:52:24 PM »

ironrod,

In Romans 11, can you see one group (Israel) who has been set aside in unbelief, and another group (gentiles) who by salvation being extended to them was meant to provoke the other group (Israel) into jealousy?

Read Romans 11:1-14 with your mind open please. There ARE 2 groups. One set aside, another provoking them to jealousy.

And what does Romans 11: 6 say to you? "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works, otherwise grace is no longer grace,"

I remember some lyrics from an old c&w song. It went "work your fingers to the bone, what do you get?.......Boney fingers!......I think thats just how God looks at our works today too, it takes away.

Joel

Tony N · « **Reply #87 on:** February 11, 2006, 10:42:31 AM »

IronRod, you and others are so quick to post that mantra: "No Jew nor Greek" but you need to see the other side of what Paul said:

Col 3:9 Do no lie to one another, stripping off the old humanity together with its practices,
Col 3:10 and putting on the young, which is being renewed into recognition, to accord with the Image of the One Who creates it,
Col 3:11 wherein there is no Greek and Jew, Circumcision and Uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, slave, freeman, but all and in all is Christ."

In Christ, Paul said there is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female etc.
Yet lookie here. Right after Paul wrote the above he wrote:
Col 3:18 Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is proper in the Lord."
Col 3:19 Husbands, love your own wives and be not bitter toward them."
Col 3:20 Children, obey your parents in all things, for this is well pleasing in the Lord."
Col 3:21 Fathers, do not vex your children, lest they may be disheartened."
Col 3:22 Slaves, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eye-slavery, as manpleasers, but with singleness of heart, fearing the Lord."

So there is still female (wives) and male (husbands) slaves and free (masters) etc.

Col 4:1 Masters, tender that which is just and equitable to your slaves, being aware that you also have a Master in the heavens."

The masters were free and the slaves, slaves.

Paul says that "in Christ Jesus . . . ":
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is anything, but a new creation."

Notice he doesn't say "the Circumcision nor the Uncircumcision is anything" but that "circumcision nor uncircumcision" meaning whether one circumcises oneself or doesn't it is nothing in Christ Jesus.

Yet, in the same epistle he says there is still Circumcision and Uncircumcision:

Gal 2:7 But, on the contrary, preceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision,
Gal 2:8 according as Peter of the Circumcision (for He Who operates in Peter for the apostleship of the Circumcision operates in me also for the nations)

So there is still Circumcision and Uncircumcision groups. But in the "in Christ" position there is neither.

IronRod · « **Reply #88 on:** February 11, 2006, 11:48:22 AM »

Tony And Joel,

So that I can better understand you. Will you tell me what are the 'works' that are talked about, as you undersrtand them?

Also, being 'one in Christ' does not take away ones individuality. So yes in Christ they will be neither, either, or. Yet there will still be individuals.

IronRod · « **Reply #89 on:** February 11, 2006, 01:09:38 PM »

Joel said:

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And what does Romans 11: 6 say to you? "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works, otherwise grace is no longer grace,"

This verse does not say that by grace without works we are saved.
If it does then Paul contradicts himself.

In Rom. 10:17 "So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. " And Rom. 2:5"...the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:"

Do you notice that paul says in vs5 God judges righteously. and in vs 6 god gives or rewards us by our deeds (ie. works) and in vs7 paul tells us that by patience in well doing (ie. good works) you need to be seeking for (ie. have a goal, be working towards) what? glory,honour, immortality(the free gift) and best of all Eternal Life (the conditional worked for gift)

Rom 11:6 Paul is telling us that, Israel is foreknown of God, They are the seed of Abraham. In taking this verse on its own it does seem to say what you are trying to point out (saved by grace)But, Paul is asking the question how is there a remant of Israel? Are they chosen by the election of grace or by their works of the law.

Tony N · « **Reply #90 on:** February 16, 2006, 06:24:19 AM »

Quote from: IronRod

Tony And Joel,

So that I can better understand you. Will you tell me what are the 'works' that are talked about, as you undersrtand them?

Also, being 'one in Christ' does not take away ones individuality. So yes in Christ they will be neither, either, or. Yet there will still be individuals.

Hi IronRod,
It is not just that "there will still be individuals" but that there still remains two distinct groups: the Circumcision and the Uncircumcision.

In the new humanity, these two groups dissappear as do slaves and free etc. When Christ comes back to earth and establishes a covenant with Israel and God writes His laws on their hearts to do all His laws, they will rightly be called the Circumcision rather than the maimcision.

IronRod · « **Reply #91 on:** February 16, 2006, 10:21:15 PM »

Hi Tony, I think I understand now.

You Said:

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Tony N · « **Reply #92 on:** February 17, 2006, 06:32:57 AM »

Ironrod,
You are still not there.

Gal 2:7 But, on the contrary, preceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision,

The Uncircumcision, also called "the nations" are those who believe the evangel. We just don't circumcise the foreskin of our penis to do the law of Moses to get us closer to God.

IronRod · « **Reply #93 on:** February 18, 2006, 10:24:20 AM »

The Law of Moses was fulfilled in Christ and it is not the 'works' that we need to do along with faith to be saved by the grace of God.

What are the works that you see us being saved by without doing? If it is only the law of Moses then we have no disagreement.

Circumcision is not the law of Moses. It is the token, or sign of the covenant that Abraham entered into with the Lord. It is no longer required as a sign or token of those who have faith and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. So what then are the works that you see as not being needed in order to be saved? And what would the works be that we need to do in order to be saved?

Zagzagel · « **Reply #94 on:** February 18, 2006, 04:08:57 PM »

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geegee, what amazes me is this whole thread began with a question about what came out of Jesus Christ's death. It went from that to the Mormons saying Christ died for our sins but we have to believe AND follow His commandments. Then you asked the question about mutilation. And it has gone off the main trail ever since. In fact, you mutilated this thread! Yea, YOU!

I certianly took some liberty here, yes. I apologize. Our discussion here better fits into your other thread and that is where I will paste and post your comments with my answer.

G.

Tony N · « **Reply #95 on:** February 19, 2006, 01:52:05 PM »

Quote from: IronRod

The Law of Moses was fulfilled in Christ and it is not the 'works' that we need to do along with faith to be saved by the grace of God.

What are the works that you see us being saved by without doing? If it is only the law of Moses then we have no disagreement.

Circumcision is not the law of Moses. It is the token, or sign of the covenant that Abraham entered into with the Lord. It is no longer required as a sign or token of those who have faith and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. So what then are the works that you see as not being needed in order to be saved? And what would the works be that we need to do in order to be saved?

Tony's reply:
Circumcision is a law of Moses:

According to Levitical law the newborn male must be circumcised the 8th day.

Lev 12:1-7 Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying. (2) Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, When a woman conceives seed and bears a male then she will be unclean seven days; as the days of her menstrual period shall she be unclean. (3) On the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. (4) Then she shall dwell thirty-three days more in her cleansing blood-flows. She shall not touch anything holy, and she shall not come to the sanctuary until the days of her cleansing be full. (5) And if she should bear a female, then she will be unclean two weeks, as during her period, and she shall dwell sixty-six days more in her cleansing blood-flows. (6) When the days of her cleansing are full, for a son or for a daughter she shall bring a year-old he-lamb as an ascent offering and a dove squab or a turtledove as a sin offering to the priest at the opening of the tent of appointment. (7) He will bring it near before Yahweh and make a propitiatory shelter over her, and she will be clean from the fountain of her blood-flows. This is the law for the one giving birth to a male or to a female.

It is not required for believers of the nations since we are *hint . . . hint* . . . the Uncircumcision.

IronRod · « **Reply #96 on:** February 21, 2006, 12:24:01 AM »

Tony, circumcision is a part of the law given to Israel while in the wilderness. But the command to circumcise was not given to Moses. It was given to Abraham as the token of his covenant with God and he and his seed after him were commanded to keep it on the 8th day, see Gen. 17:9-14. It still is not the law of Moses, the law was added to the already existing commandment of circumcision, and it is therefore included in the law because of the covenant Abraham made.

So what are the works that you object to? The law of Moses was fullfilled with the sacrifice of Christ. So that is not the work that I believe we need to do.

Joel · « **Reply #97 on:** February 21, 2006, 01:33:51 PM »

"The law of Moses was fullfilled with the sacrifice of Christ."

The fact remains, the crucified risen Lord Jesus Christ AFTER paying the price for our sins, STILL required following of the Law for His chosen people Israel. Matthew 28:20 is clear, He told His disciples to teach and observe ALL He had commanded them right before He left. This recorded history, transpired before salvation had gone to the gentiles, salvatiion was yet of the Jews.

Jesus commanded strict obedience to the law. Need an example or two?

When was it first learned that the law had been nailed to the cross with Christ ironrod? You seem to think this truth was known and in practice immediatley,...... it wasn't.

His............Joel

Tony N · « **Reply #98 on:** February 22, 2006, 07:11:55 AM »

IronRod,
When Christ comes back for Israel and sets up His kingdom on the earth what do you think is going to happen with the law?

God is going to write the law on their hearts for them to do all the law.

I don't object to any works per se, I object that one feels they must do the works of the law (or the commandments of Christ) in order to be saved. What commandments of Christ do you see as not being in the law? They are the law and then some.

Zagzagel · « **Reply #99 on:** February 22, 2006, 09:58:36 PM »

What comes out of Christs Death? (I thought about this so must ask)

Don't you know?

G.

Author Topic: What comes out of Christ's death for all mankind? (Read 12746 times)