Bump.

I haven't forgot you geegee. Been kinda busy.

John 11:26-27....And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this? She said to Him, yes Lord, I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who has come into the world.
...Is this what we believe about Him for eternal life g? We believe that He has left the world, buried and ressurected. Jesus left, and sent His Spirit.


"Joel. I'm glad you are sharing you convictions with me here. You are becoming more clear in how you are veiwing this and why you believe what you believe. What is curious is this....nah, more on that later too."

This was a very easy straitforward question geegee. Why no answer?

I could go on and on, and there is not Pauls message to be believed in here from the guy who was sent to bear witness of Him."


"I understand where you are coming from and where you are going with this."

Good. Where am I going?

 "I believe there are good reason for this which makes sense if we follow the story line of the bible."

I think you are speaking of in this story line what I have heard called the golden thread. Where we can see Jesus all through the bible. I see Him there too. Where most make the mistake though is believing the common myth, that believers saw this all the way through the bible too.  I believe these are the scriptures that were hid in God that even Jesus own disiples hadn't seen. Nobody saw this golden thread till the mystery, the unsearchable riches of Christ were revealed to the apostle to the gentiles......Paul.

You really need to look at what people were told to believe and what they believed for salvation prior to Paul being called geegee. Nobody believed then what we believe today .


"Oh, trust me, Joel... I have looked good and hard at it. Even though I may not have all the answers, yet I think I could present something to you which makes good sense, is biblical, and can answer your questions here."

I am listening.

" Remember I stated before that I use to be dispensationist, and you pointed out that I still am, and then I agreed - to some point!! LOL."

 All Christians are dispensational, but most don't know it.

When would you say that men went from being under the law to Gods matchless grace?

 "So, I am familiar with this teaching and didn't just join this discussion out of curiosity. That is not to say that you haven't studied this at great length, I'm sure you have. So your studies led you to your convictions."

I think you are somewhat familiar with, we'll never know it all. Yes I have studied, and I keep on studying.

 wQuote:
Romans 10:9......"If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved".

1 Cor 15:1-6....Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Now there is what we are told to believe concerning Jesus.  

"By "we", do you mean us of the uncircumcision? I have to be certian of your point here in order to include this in my forthcoming explanation. I do think this is what you infer."

No, I mean we today, all of us, Jew and Gentile since the beginning of the dispensation of the Grace of God.

quote...Knock yourself out g.

"My answer may just knock you off your chair, Joel!! Lol, just kidding, friend."

The only way you will knock me off my chair is if you show me from scripture what I asked for, not by painting me an abstract picture.
 
His............Joel

Joel.  Sorry for taking time to respond.  I've been struggling to find the best place to start with the story line of the gospel (only one gospel) as presented in the whole of scripture.  I think I have now formulated a plan and will need at least another day to post it.  So look forward to it tomorrow...errr...(its now a new day!)...I mean, tonight.

(Actually, I did work on it two nights ago...and it was too long of a post (I was going at it for 4 hours LOL) so I decided to scrap it instead, and mulched over how to shorten it so that I wouldn't put you to sleep.  Anyways, I think I figured out the best scripural source to start with and now will work on presenting to you shortly)

In the meantime, I will address one question of yours.

John 11:26-27....And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this? She said to Him, yes Lord, I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who has come into the world.
...Is this what we believe about Him for eternal life g? We believe that He has left the world, buried and ressurected. Jesus left, and sent His Spirit.

To answer your question, YES.  ABSOLUTELY!!!  You see, Jesus isn't saying anything different here to her in the way you understand it.  Jesus prior to verse 26 affirms that He is the resurrection and life.  This is the message of the gospel.  This is the message of the Church.  This passage speaks or points to what is yet to be come, namely, his actual death and resurrection, in order to bring her and us into resurrection life experience.  Paul speaks of this a great deal in his letters.  And this is something I will be working with in my next post.  There is no gospel without their Messiah going into hades to experience our death, and to be resurrected so that they and us could shout with confidence that Jesus is not only the Christ, but Jesus is also Lord (God).  There is a hint of transition or a new paradigm that these Jews had to realize.  One thing is that without Chist Jesus' death and resurrection, there would be no gospel.

G.

A closer look at the first Council in Jerusalem as found in Acts 15.

Verse 1  And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

So this contains the purpose of why the believers in Jesus Christ gathered together.  Verse 5 points out a sect of the believing Pharisees who raise their concern of what should be done with believing Gentiles who recieved the Holy Spirit through the gospel preaching.

"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses"

An argument could be raised here to support your idea that the gospel to the Jews was indeed different than those of the Gentiles.  With further investigation, I believe that that idea will be found wanting.  There is no hint in this chapter to conclude that there is a gospel for the Jew, and a gospel for the Gentile.  Lets continue..

Obviously, people were getting hot under the collar as suggested in verse 7.  Something was happening, a decision of what to do with these believing Gentiles had to be made.  The scenerio causes Peter to stand up and remind his audience of the first Gentiles converted under His gospel preaching.  And Peter said that this happened a good while ago too.  Hmmm...where is this going?  Lets find out.  Here is Peter's words:

"Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.  And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;  And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.  Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?  But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they"  (verses 7-11)

Peter chooses an interesting way to put this.  Notice a few things Peter said, which I highlighted.  This will become important as we dig a little deeper into the story here.  Keep in mind that this whole dispute has to do with whether the Gentiles should come into circumcision and the law of Moses.  The highlights will give much more meaning to those things later on.

Next we have Paul and Barnabas telling them of the wonderful works God did amongst the believiing Gentiles without the Gentiles partaking in the act of circumcision and placing themselves under the law of Moses.  With other words, God was with the Gentiles in a mighty way regardless of their uncircumcised state.

And now enters the most important key player in this story - James.  What James has to say is significant and relates the hidden gospel directly to Davids story.  Previously, I mentioned that David was a shadow/type of Christ, with the gospel hidden in that story - only to be revealed at the proper time.  Here we will now see the gospel for the Jew and Gentile in a beautiful manner that only the Holy Spirit could reveal.  Here are the words of James:

"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.  And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,  After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:  That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.  Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world."

James says that the words of the prophets agrees with what Peter said, and then continues to quote a passage from the book of Amos.  What is interesting about this passage is how the tabernacle of David will be rebuilt and its relation to the Gentiles who have become converted.  Understanding this scripture quoted by James in a natural or literal sense will not do because the Gentiles were already coming into faith before the ruined tabernacle of David was set up again.  But understanding this as a spiritual reality gives meaning and truth to this prophecy.  But what is the tabernacle of David?  

It should be noted that Amos made this prophecy while Solomons Temple was still standing.  So what was Amos speaking of when speaking of Davids Tabernacle?  The only Tabernacle that David made for the Ark of God was a pitched tent.  And this tent was in Davids house, Jerusalem, also called Zion.  Note those words "Davids House", "Jerusalem" and "Zion" because the NT writers paint a beautiful picture of what this Tabernacle, or dwelling place of God is.  David then is upset with the fact that he dwells in a house of cedar while God dwells in a tent.  So David desires and plans to build God a house.  But God tells him NO, for it was Davids seed who was to build him an habitation and with Davids seed would the kingdom be established forever.  This is of course speaking of David's son, Solomon, but notice the prophetic utterance in there - for it is through the seed of David that God would raise a King to sit on Davids throne forever!!  There are connections in there that the writers of the NT testamant put beautiful imagery to in describing this tabernacle of David which will be raised from its ruins and it all points to Jesus!!

It is important to notice that Amos attributes the builder of this tabernacle to God for he says in 9:11-12,  "In that day, will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old.  That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the Lord that doeth this".

So what is David's tabernacle, that came to ruin but is to be raised by God himself as in the days of old?  And how does this connect with the conversion of the Gentiles with the preaching of the gospel by the Jewish converts as James pointed out?  The connection is that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day ("In that day" - Amos) of Pentecosst is when the ruined tabernacle of David was raised and set up.  And it was like returning to the days of old when David brought the Ark of God to a tent he pitched in Zion where there was great celebration, dance, song and giving of praise and thanksgiving and sacrifices.  This is a wonderful picture of what happened when God started building his church at Pentecost.  Note that this tent which temporarily housed God, lost its strict ceremonial structure for a time, and the people celebrated with great exuberance and joy.  I think this was a shadow of what was to come through Jesus Christ who was to be the builder of God's house.  And we (Jew and Gentile) are that house, that building, that habitation of God, where God dwells.  Notice too that this temporary dwelling place of God in Davids tent only contained the Ark of God.  The usual strict ceremonial Levitical duties was temporarily suspended, which I think signifies that there was no place for stict Law and ordinances as was the customary practice.  This is a picture of what Gods church is like.  God's church does not rely on all these Levitical ceremonies but gives spiritual praise, thanks, worship, fellowship, etc just as the Israelites did when the Ark was set in the midst of Davids tent in Zion.

So, we have Peters words making sense now when we connect what I highlighted earlier to what James says.  Namely that God is calling out a Gentile people who will be saved along with the Jews.  And together we are the habitation and dwelling place of God as many scriptures reveal.  It was therefore necessary that the Gentiles hear the gospel message from the Jew, and through the gospel from the hands of the Jew, the Holy Spirit came to inhabit the Gentiles, God putting no distinction between the two parties.  This is why Peter then concludes by saying that we (that is the Jews) will be saved by grace just like those Gentiles were.  Peter nailed the gospel right on the head!!

To conclude this gospel hidden in David, we now see that through the  conversion of the Gentiles, the words of the prophets have been fulfilled and established through the gospel which states that Jesus is the seed of David, whose Kingdom is planted in Zion, and dwells in Heavenly Jerusalem - all this signifying that we are that possession, habitatiion and structure of God.  As David had this passion and love for God and his people, so did Jesus.  And Jesus recieved "the sure mercies of David" (Acts 13)

Next I will tackle this Hope of Israel.  What is it?

G.

The Hope of Israel - What is it?

Paul speaking to Agrippa:

"And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers.  Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come.  For which hopes sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews"  (Acts 26:6-7)

Apparently, Paul ticked of some Jews for preaching about the hope of Israel.  What was the promise to the fathers, and the promise that the twelve tribes hoped to come?  Well, we already know your answer, Joel.  Would it agree with Pauls defense?

Immediately, after telling Agrippa of the charge against him, Paul points to the resurrection!!  Why is that??  (I will come back to that question in a few moments)  Paul then tells Agrippa his story, about how he, as a strict Pharisee, persecuted the saints because he wanted to do everything contrary to the name of Jesus.  Then Paul reveals the vision which converted him to this same Jesus of Nazereth that he persecuted. (There are some things in that vision that I want to address later)  Once converted, Paul then relays how he preached this gospel to them in Damascus, Jerusalem, Judea and eventually to the Gentiles.  So, now we come to Pauls reason for being in bonds, the reason why this "hope of Israel" preaching angered the Jews.  Here is how Paul states it:

"Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:  That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles"  (Acts 26:22-23)

Did you catch that, Joel?  At the beginning of his defense, Paul tells Agrippa that it was for Israels promise that he was being charged by the Jews.  Paul eventually links Israels promise to come to the resurrected CHRIST - Jesus the LORD!!

Lets regress now to Abraham.  We know that the promise made to Abraham was land and many descendants (Genesis 12:1)  What does Paul have to say about this promise which was made to Abraham, which promise Israel still hoped to come?  

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made, He saith not, and to seeds, as of many, but as of one;  And to thy seed, which is Christ"

Again, Paul links the promise to Christ.  But some think that the promise had to do with land and descendants?  How does land and descendants fit into Christ?  Mmmm...is there a scripture to answer this question?

"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.  By faith he sojourned in the land of promise , as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:  For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.  Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delievered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.  Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in the multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable"

I want to stop here for a moment to bring attention to a few things before I quote the rest of the text concerning Abrahams faith.  It should be noticed that Abraham did enter the promised land, along with his heirs.  Not only that, but his seed became as the stars of the sky.  In this, we see that God supernaturally and naturally/literally fulfill his promise to Abraham.  This can be verified when consulting the Hebrew scriptures for it will show that this was declared that God indeed fulfill his promise to father Abraham and his seed.

"And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which He sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.  And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that He sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand.  There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass"   (Josh. 21:43-45)

Now back to story of Abraham in the book of Hebrews.

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.  For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country, and truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out.  But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly:  Where God is not ashamed to be called their God:  for he hath prepared for them a city"  (Hebrews 11:13-6)

Isn't it strange to realize that the promise made to Abraham was fulfilled, and then state the opposite?  Did you catch that?  Paul is simply following spiritual principles here - the natural first, then the spiritual.  Now its beginning to make sense why Paul got into hot water with the Jews when realizing and preaching that Israels hope was the resurrected Christ, Jesus of Nazareth.  The Jews were seeking a natural and earthly Kingdom in which their Messiah would rule from Davids throne.  So did the disciples of Jesus at first.  But here is the spiritual side of the promise that Paul is speaking of, which the sages of old sought and saw by faith.

"But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels.  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel"  (Hebrews 12:22-24)

Beautiful picture of what the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ our Lord obtained for the Jew and Gentile believers!!  "Israels hope" is linked to the gospel message that Jesus died and resurrected.  Here (in the book of Hebrews) is spoken again mount Zion.  I believe that is alluding to Davids Tabernacle as said in my previous post (imo)  which is the spiritual building - the CHURCH - which Jesus started constructing at Pentecost.  Believing Jew and Gentile are of the firstborn - Jesus Christ.  It should be apparent now that Israels HOPE, which was the promise given to Abraham, has been realized in the death and resurrection of their Messiah.  For further proof, I will now quote something from Peter:

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,  to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you"  (1 Peter 1:1-4)

This hope that the Jews had, and which the Gentiles were to partake in (Ephesians), was realized in the resurrected Christ.  Peter is saying nothing different than Paul.  Further reading into Peters letter reveals that the prophets spoke of this salvation that was to come to Israel and the Gentiles.  Furthermore, Peter says that they are now a spiritual house, which alludes to the Church of God, in which both Jew and Gentile have fellowship together, and partake of the promise together, in the Holy Spirit.  

But back to the vision that Paul had, for I wanted to point out certian things there.  Jesus told Paul that in persecuting his saints, that he was in fact fighting against the Lord of Glory.  Not only that, Paul said else where that he tried to destroy the Church of God.  But he was now to take that message he heard, the gospel he tried to destroy, which had to do with a man from nazereth who was resurrected - Paul was now commissioned to take this gospel to the Jew and Gentile, "that their eyes may be open, turning them from darkness to light, and from the power of satan unto God.  That (take notice, Joel) THEY may recieve forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among THEM which are sanctified by faith that is IN ME".  That was the information in the vision which Paul shared.  But what did Paul do?  Here is Pauls next words:

"Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:  But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.  Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:  That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.  (Acts 26:19-23)

And again Paul speaks of the HOPE of ISRAEL:

"For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.  And they said unto him, We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee.  But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.  And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening."  (Acts 28:20-23)

To conclude this, we see that Israels hope is salvation through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.  Israels hope is linked and dependant on the risen Lord.  This was the gospel message found in the writings of the prophets.  This IS the promise given to Abraham.  Israels hope in that promise included the Gentiles.  Believing Jew and Gentile are now co-heirs with Christ who is the heir, the seed - promise, of Abraham.  The truth of land and descendants belong to Jesus and those in Him.  The Church are those believing Jews and Gentiles who are built up together as a holy building for Gods dwelling.  We are the stones, Christ the chief corner-stone of Gods Holy Spiritual House.  Our portion is mount Zion, the city of the living God, also called New and Heavenly Jerusalem.  In Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, but one body - Christ the head - The Last Adam  In Christ, we recieve the sure mercies of David.  For the reality of the Ark, God himself, dwells within his True Tabernacle which He has raised from the ruins of Davids Tabernacle.  In this House of God we offer praises, give worship, thanks and blessings.  The Levitical priesthood has become suspended forever because Jesus washed us with his own blood and cleansed us with the water of his word.

Joel.  The Jews and Gentiles "hope" today is in Christ Jesus.  That same messaage, that same gospel, which went forth from the mouth of God's first chosen disciples (the believing Jews) was also the same message that Paul preached.  This is Isreals Hope - The gospel which is about the risen Lord.  The kingdom that they preached before the death and resurrection is the same kingdom news that the disciples and Paul preached to Jew and Gentile.  I can only hope that I made that clear enough in this post.  If not, then I will try again.

Blessings.

G.

"Perhaps he should have just sat around and said, "Yup, I believe you God. But I don't think it necessary for me to do any kind of work to prove my faith. After all, wouldn't my works disqualify my faith somehow? Yup, I conclude God that you have saved me already, so no boat is necessary for me to build".

It makes about as much sense as those who believe people before the cross looked forward to it for their salvation.

 "Now, Joel, if Noah said something like this in his head, do you think that his faith would have saved him?"

Possibly. Depends on what he REALLY believed, and how he acted upon that belief.

 "This is where James makes much sense when he says that faith without works is dead. Faith is active and alive! So based on what you said, yes I agree with you that Noah's faith with works saved his household."

Right, he pretty much said faith without works makes faith dead!. As in no works, no faith.

"So based on what you said, yes I agree with you that Noah's faith with works saved his household."

Good, then you must also agree that it wasn't his faith in an upcoming death and resurrection then, correct? His faith was that he believed what God had told him and the works was his response to what God had told him to do. NO law, just do as God asked.

Well I am glad you see that that it was hid in the scriptures. So tell me, since it was hid, what was the good news back then? What was the good news from God that people believed to be saved geegee?

"Faith in God?"

Come on geegee. The good news for Noah wasn't "Faith in God", now was it? It was build a boat and save your family.

The good news wasn't "faith in God" after the fall, it was the news that someones seed would cruch a serpents head.

It appears you are trying to muddy the good news God gave at various times with a generic one line same old thing answer "faith in God".

I'd say the proper response to God always was, hearing His good news/message and believing it, and if there are any strings attached, do them.

Glad I accepted His free gift, No strings attatched!!!.....Joel

"The PERSON to come and what He was to do was hid in shadows and types."

No sir, the Messiah and prophesy concerning Israels messiah, was not hid in shadows. He and what He will accomplish on this earth are as easy to see as the nose on this Duchmans face in the scriptures.

Easy to see?  Not so.  Otherwise certian Jews would not have crucified their Messiah,  John the baptist would not have asked if he was the one spoken of to come, and the disciples would have understood the Messiahs work.  Even to this day, many Jews are still awaiting for their Messiah to come.

Like I already said, WE can see the salvation of God and the types of Christ in the scriptures. Thank God He had a secret plan to reveal it to us through the apostle to the gentiles.......Paul.

And what was that Gospel that Paul taught and preached?  Was it not the the glorification of Christ Jesus through death and resurrection?  That we might recieve the atonement?  I say "we" as in both Gentile and Jew alike.  As far as I can tell, Paul knew of only one gospel for the Jew and Gentile.  He never did once mention or recognize any other gospel whereby men might get saved.  Paul never once hinted at, nor ever spoke of one gospel message for the Jew and another gospel message for the Gentile.  That idea is foreign to scripture.

"Scriptures are clear on that. Want some scripture?"

I know, this is what I have been trying to teach you.

What you have shown me, Joel, is that there was a message given prior to the death and resurrection of Jesus.  And that the message of the apostles is different post death and resurrection of Jesus.  What I see is that you have made several messages out of the one plan of God.    You say that one good news is for the Jew and concerns the promise given to Abraham.  But what you have not acknowledged is that Paul applied that promise given to Abraham and recognized it in Jesus Christ.  To Paul, Jesus is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic promise, and is now Israels Hope.  This is why he angered his Jewish contemporaries and was in bonds for "the hope of Isreal".  Even his message in Romans explains the mystery of the gospel in which the Gentile nations have been grafted into the olive tree to partake of the fat and root - Jesus Christ - Isreals hope.  Paul teaches that unbelieving natural Israel have no hope outside of faith in Christ.  They have been severed from their olive tree.  Paul acknowledges no other gospel for them except they be grafted back into their olive tree by faith.  Israel is cut off from the Abrahamic promise and they have no hope or salvation outside of faith in Christ.

"So based on what you said, yes I agree with you that Noah's faith with works saved his household."

Good, then you must also agree that it wasn't his faith in an upcoming death and resurrection then, correct? His faith was that he believed what God had told him and the works was his response to what God had told him to do. NO law, just do as God asked.

Exactly.  But to put things into perspective, Peter applied this historical story the death and resurrection of Jesus.  Paul in writing the book of Hebrews points to the faith of the sages of old.  The point is how faith saved, delivered, preserved, gave good report, etc..and now the message of the apostles is that our faith should be in Christ Jesus.  

A thought just came to me, where do you think all those who lived and died before Abrahams covenant and before the death of Christ, where do they fit into a salvation plan?  What was their good news and what is their place after a resurrection?

Well I am glad you see that that it was hid in the scriptures. So tell me, since it was hid, what was the good news back then? What was the good news from God that people believed to be saved geegee?

I answered (with a question mark)...

"Faith in God?"

You responded:

Come on geegee. The good news for Noah wasn't "Faith in God", now was it? It was build a boat and save your family.

The good news wasn't "faith in God" after the fall, it was the news that someones seed would cruch a serpents head.

It appears you are trying to muddy the good news God gave at various times with a generic one line same old thing answer "faith in God".

Paul in Hebrews states that it was by FAITH that these sages of old did what they did.  Faith in what you ask?  It was faith in God, Joel.  It was their faith that pleased God.  But I put a question mark behind my answer for a reason.  It is a simple answer but one that is true.  At least I am not muddying the good news by trying to make a whole bunch of different good new's and complicate the salvation message found in the bible.

I'd say the proper response to God always was, hearing His good news/message and believing it, and if there are any strings attached, do them.

Glad I accepted His free gift, No strings attatched!!!

Thats all fine and dandy, Joel.  I have no significant problems to what you just said.  The problem I do have is with your ideas that there are several good news which you detach from the first promise of a saviour to come.  Faith has always been the key to pleasing God.  One problem, specifically, that I have with your view is that you believe that there is a good news for natural Israel through the promise given to Abraham and one which needs fulfillment.  I believe that the Apostle Paul has answered your question and his answer does not jive with your understanding.

G.

Like I already said, WE can see the salvation of God and the types of Christ in the scriptures. Thank God He had a secret plan to reveal it to us through the apostle to the gentiles.......Paul.


"And what was that Gospel that Paul taught and preached?"

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,   But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
 
Paul preached Christ according to the revelation of the mystery.  


 "Was it not the the glorification of Christ Jesus through death and resurrection? That we might recieve the atonement?"

Yes. The D B, and R. You forgot the B.

"I say "we" as in both Gentile and Jew alike."

Yes.

 "As far as I can tell, Paul knew of only one gospel for the Jew and Gentile."

 We'll keep working on that.

 "He never did once mention or recognize any other gospel whereby men might get saved. "

He denounced any other good news than which he preached. This would include the good news of the kingdom since Paul didn't preach it.

"Paul never once hinted at, nor ever spoke of one gospel message for the Jew and another gospel message for the Gentile. That idea is foreign to scripture."

Why after fourteen years was Paul given revelation that he should go to Jerusalem and communicate the gospel which he preached If they preached the same thing? Why did he go to the important ones instead of to the masses? Must have been important don't you think? How did this conclude?.........

But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed [to be somewhat] in conference added nothing to me:  
 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter;  
 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)  
 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.....They then shook hands on the deal and went their seperate ways.

"What you have shown me, Joel, is that there was a message given prior to the death and resurrection of Jesus."

Yes

"And that the message of the apostles is different post death and resurrection of Jesus."

Yes!

 "What I see is that you have made several messages out of the one plan of God."

WHAT??  I have just shown that there were many times people recieved good news from God, and the good news they recieved was different.
You are trying to make BEST news from God, the manifold wisdom of God, kept hidden since before the foundation of the world, and throw it in everywhere it is still hidden!
 
"You say that one good news is for the Jew and concerns the promise given to Abraham."

No, what you of speak Abraham (the first Jew) of concerns a conditional covenant. Flesh removal to be right with God.

 "But what you have not acknowledged is that Paul applied that promise given to Abraham and recognized it in Jesus Christ."

Paul recognised that the promise, the *unconditional covenant* was made with Abraham BEFORE circumcision.

"How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision."

 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Jew and gentile can take their inheritance back to one man, we, who do not work, to him before circumcision.  


 Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised.

The circumcised, those who *walk in the steps of that faith* have their roots in the same man.

Paul preached Christ according to the revelation of the mystery.

Sure.  I do agree with that.

He denounced any other good news than which he preached. This would include the good news of the kingdom since Paul didn't preach it.

Err...I do believe that Paul preached the kingdom as shown in Acts.  But you would be correct if you were to say that Paul didn't preach any kingdom for unbelieving natural/fleshly Isreal that would be established sometime in their future.  But that is what you do believe, isn't it?  You do believe that in an age to come, Christ Jesus will set foot on earth (mount olives) and set up a kingdom for Isreal, thus fulfilling the promises given them through Abraham.  A kingdom in which the twelve Apostles will sit on thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Isreal.  Jesus establishing the throne of David and rules from Jerusalem?  If that is fairly accurate, do you also believe that the Jewish ordinances, statutes, judgements and laws (Temple practices) will also be put into practice again?  Joel, IF that is what you believe, I don't know how you can support that by scripture?

I would see then a reason for Paul to denounce this sort of Kingdom.  Anyway, neither can this type of eschatology be found in the words of Peter, John or James.

Why after fourteen years was Paul given revelation that he should go to Jerusalem and communicate the gospel which he preached If they preached the same thing? Why did he go to the important ones instead of to the masses? Must have been important don't you think?

Very important, yes.  But I went over this a few times already.  I suppose it took time for the "truth of the gospel" to be fully developed and known.  This would explain several things in the scriptures.  I will get into that again later.

The Galation passage you quote (2:7-9)

But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;  
(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)  And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision

We know that the Gentiles, and probably the scattered (lost) tribes of Isreal (them I have to eventually fit into our discussion sometime), were pressured to be circumcised and submit to the law of Moses.  Paul calls them "False brethren" who do not walk according to the "truth of the gospel".  Nevertheless, according to your understanding, you see two good news there in that passage.  That passage says no such thing.  All it says is that the power that worked in Peter to preach the gospel to the circumcised was also mighty in Paul who was preaching the same gospel to the Gentiles.  This, I believe, is the proper understanding.  Do you have any other proof that suggests that the gospel to the circumcision  included circumcision/keep of the law besides this passage?  I have already shown you previously that Paul adamantly spoke against a gospel that would include "works" as a means for righteousness for Jew and Gentile.  Strange that  Paul would be so outspoken about any other gospel?  One would think that Paul would have made it clear that there was another valid gospel, but it was for the Jews only?  But we find the opposite true in all his letters.

WHAT?? I have just shown that there were many times people recieved good news from God, and the good news they recieved was different.
You are trying to make BEST news from God, the manifold wisdom of God, kept hidden since before the foundation of the world, and throw it in everywhere it is still hidden!

Yes, you have shown that many people have recieved good news from God and that they are different.  I think my previous post attempts to shed some light on that.  And what I am trying to do is not make it the "BEST" news, which it is, but I am trying to show that it IS the consummation of all the good news that has been given throughout humanities history.  Take a close look at New Jerusalem as portrayed in Revelation and it ties all these good news into that long promised City.

If there is one thing that we agree on about the gospel (s) is this:

1.  The Messiah is the center of the gospel message.

Here is something for you to think about.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.  (Romans 1:16)

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;  But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. (1 Cr 1:23-24)

In my previous post, I said that I wanted to now concentrate more on my points four and five.  So that will be next of my agenda.   Hopefully I can make some sense of what was going on with the kingdom message prior to Jesus death.

G.

bump again!!!