DT.  Sorry for the delay, and I am more sorry that I will have to delay a response to your questions here.  I will come back in a few days to give you an answer.

But I want to say this.  Does the book of Hebrews conflict with my view that God will save all Jews?  I believe in universalism, comprehensive grace, the salvation of all, etc, however one wants to call the doctrine or idea that God will not lose one of his creatures in either the LOF or through inihilation but will save ALL because Jesus death ransomed the whole of humanity and not just some.

Basically, I want to talk about the book of Hebrews since this is where some might think they get there strongest argument that many will be lost to this LOF (lake of fire) or be anihilated.

Later, then.

Oh....did you want to start with another question or comment since I already gave you part of the answers?  lol.

Um, I thought maybe I could get started with a complicated verse!  Yeah, lets go with this one.

Hebrews 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

Well, ummm..errr..okay okay - here goes

Most of Christianity, as I understand, use this verse to support their belief that you only get one chance in life.  When you die, thats it, game over, finished, parties over, then comes the judgement at the great White throne arena.

Do you think (or anyone else) really believe this verse is speaking of that?

No response yet?  LOL.

Perhaps I polarized by saying that this specific verse is not speaking of what many to believe?.....therefore, the quietness?

All I know is two things...

1.  Many claim, by using this specific verse, that death is the final chance for repentance.

2.  I claim, that this specific verse is not about that claim of others who would like to note that death is the finality of choices.  The claim is that choices end at death.  I disagree that this Hebrew pasage is about that and is a misrepresentation of the word of the writer of Hebrews.  With other words, those who say that death is finality of our choices, then those who say this does not understand the meaning of that verse.

G.

For the record, I for one DO BELEIVE that G-d will "save" everyone.  Anyone who is familiar with my thoughts already know this.

The Jews are saved because From Adam and Eve on down, they were sacrificed to save the Gentiles.  

The Gentiles will have to decide and declare that they are Christians, because they evolved from Satan's genetic engineering, and do not automatically belong to Christ.  Baptism of those too young to make the decision themselves takes care of the matter.  

Everyone will have a second chance, because after the "Golden Millennium" Satan will come back for a short period, and those who are with him will have a chance to choose to be saved.

While God used the pretense that Christ came to save his own, e.g. the Jews, his real agenda was the Gentiles.  He had to hide this from Satan, because the Earth, after all, was Satan's kingdom, and He couldn't just come in and take over.  So that Christ could preach to the Gentiles, the Jews had to reject him, ergo, God made them stiffnecked.  That will not be held against them.

GeeGee,  

Okay, you ARE up to serious discussion.

I approached religion with an open mind because I was not brought up in a religious household; Christian, but not religious, and I had no pre-conceived ideas on Christianity.  All I got out of it was that there was Heaven and there was Hell, and I'd better be good or I was going to the latter.  When I became interested in the details,  I was curious as to why God, whom everyone was saying was loving and merciful, would play a dirty trick on A&E, as you call them.  All my meditation started from there.

The Bible calls them Hebrews for the most part.  I refer to them as Jews simply as a generic term to separate the descendants of A&E from the Gentiles.  

Where does it say in the Bible that the Gentiles are descendants of any particular tribe or tribes of Israel?  

While Leakey found proof of evolution in the Olduvai Gorge in Africa, that was not the only source of evolution.   China was another site.  The fact that evolution began in more than one site and produced the same result, homo sapiens, seems proof enough to me that that, too, was a product of intelligent design, albeit, not of God's doing.  

Some theologians do not believe in Satan, but the whole theme in the Bible is the struggle with God that Satan carried on in his ambition to be greater than God.  Only God can create life, but Satan, as the Prince of the Earth, can manipulate it.  God would most certainly not have given him a barren earth without the power to populate it.  We think God created everything in the world, but would He have given Satan this solar system to be prince of without letting him do more than just be a game keeper?  I believe that God gave him a spark of life to develop as he saw fit.  Along came the different ages, and I'm sure that dinosaurs were interesting to bring about, but Satan needed a following to worship him as A&E worshipped God from the Garden of Eden.  Eden was created for a special purpose; to give A&E a secure  environment.  Once their mission, i.e. succumbing to Satan's temptation, was accomplished, and they were sent out in the world to live among with the Gentiles, Eden disappeared.  We humans have difficulty in comprehending that A&E lived in Eden for millions of years, but yet, we expect to live forever.

There are all kinds of stories in the Bible, but they are all directed toward Jesus being born and destroying Satan.  In our arrogance, we read it as our salvation being the important subject.  Not so.  That is a bonus from Satan's destruction.

When Cain killed Abel and was sent away, he said that if "they" found him, that "they" would kill him.  Since there were supposed to have been only his family on earth, who would "they" be?  The only logical answer is that there were already other people out there and they would have to have been evolved, because I don't think God forgot to tell us that He had created someone other than A&E.  He placed the "mark of Cain" on him so that he would be safe.  People have pondered for generations as to what that mark would have been.  What form it was is unimportant.  What's important is that it made him acceptable to the Gentiles and he lived among them and married at least one of them.

Every story of personal behavior of the generations leading to the birth of Jesus reflect one thing:  where there was marriage to a Gentile involved, the line leading to Jesus went someone other than the obvious heir.  There is no way that Gentiles would be unacceptable unless they were from a different source.  By the time that Joseph was sold into Egypt, the Jews had married Gentiles against the prohibition, and the reason, as I stated before, that Egypt was his destination is that the Egyptians were more biased than the Jews against miscegenation.  While the Bible tells the story of Joseph taking his family into Egypt, and their 400 year stay there, growing into a nation, becoming slaves, and finally escaping, what it doesn't say is the real purpose of it all: keeping the line of Jesus' descendancy pure from tainted blood.  

After Jesus was sacrificed, there was no reason for the Jews not to mix with the Gentiles, and Peter tells of a sheet coming down from Heaven with all sorts of unclean things on it, and he is told, to paraphrase, that they are no longer unclean.  That is the point at which Gentiles are given, not equal, because the Jews are first out of consideration of their being created to be sacrificed, but, at least, eternal life in a happy environment.

Okay, you ARE up to serious discussion.

Hello?  Of course I am, Yankee.  My comments on that other thread were not "teehee" comments, either, so don't boohoo.  My comment (there) were meant to be addressed seriously.. and I'll get back to that thread when I can.

I was curious as to why God, whom everyone was saying was loving and merciful, would play a dirty trick on A&E, as you call them. All my meditation started from there.

And this is the reason why I came to accept universalism/univ. reconciliation/total redemption/comprehensive grace/etc (whatever people want to call it).  How could a god create a world and people with his tri-omni possession only to have the ability to save the few and burn the rest?  The God I know isn't interested in that kind of eternal vengeance or judgement.

Where does it say in the Bible that the Gentiles are descendants of any particular tribe or tribes of Israel?

The question that should be asked is "when did a people become known as Jews or an Isreal"?

While Leakey found proof of evolution in the Olduvai Gorge in Africa, that was not the only source of evolution. China was another site. The fact that evolution began in more than one site and produced the same result, homo sapiens, seems proof enough to me that that, too, was a product of intelligent design, albeit, not of God's doing.

God was the one who said "let" and it was done the way HE imagined.  The source of all creation is God.  God even created this pesky little wanna-be called satan (at least thats the picture people paint of this satan/devil entity)  Besides, God knows no other besides Him who made the world and all that is in it.  Furthermore, IF God imagined evolution as a means for his creativy work, so be it.  I am not overly concerned or threatened with evolution.

Some theologians do not believe in Satan, but the whole theme in the Bible is the struggle with God that Satan carried on in his ambition to be greater than God. Only God can create life, but Satan, as the Prince of the Earth, can manipulate it. God would most certainly not have given him a barren earth without the power to populate it. We think God created everything in the world, but would He have given Satan this solar system to be prince of without letting him do more than just be a game keeper? I believe that God gave him a spark of life to develop as he saw fit.

IF there were these pre-Adamites, I surely wouldn't attribute them to the workings of Satan.  There is no scripture to warrant my imagination to imagine such imaginations.

Eden was created for a special purpose; to give A&E a secure environment. Once their mission, i.e. succumbing to Satan's temptation, was accomplished, and they were sent out in the world to live among with the Gentiles, Eden disappeared. We humans have difficulty in comprehending that A&E lived in Eden for millions of years, but yet, we expect to live forever.

Not exactly.  Eden did not disappear.  It is still there and you can see for yourself in the book of Revelations.  What I may have a hard time understanding is, if it was millions of years, why A&E disobeyed by not eating from the Tree of LIFE?  I have another understanding of the Eden story than the strict fundamental literalistic approach.  To me, it is a beautiful picture of the plan of God.  And you are seeing something of that effect too!!  It is true that A&E were both naked and they were not ashamed.  I think their nakedness remained because they did not eat from the Tree of Life.  Their nakedness was filled with knowledge or awareness of their situation and they tried to hide themselves, and their nakedness, from God.  To skip to the end, we see that man/woman are restored again to Eden, when Jerusalem above descends to be with mankind.  And there will no longer be a flaming sword to protect the way to the tree of LIFE because every door leading into New Jerusalem are open from all sides!!

There are all kinds of stories in the Bible, but they are all directed toward Jesus being born and destroying Satan. In our arrogance, we read it as our salvation being the important subject. Not so. That is a bonus from Satan's destruction.

I agree, mostly.  I believe it is more than just being restored to the image of God first found in A&E as some religions purport.  The plan of God is much more glorious than that.

When Cain killed Abel and was sent away, he said that if "they" found him, that "they" would kill him. Since there were supposed to have been only his family on earth, who would "they" be? The only logical answer is that there were already other people out there and they would have to have been evolved

My answer to this is very much close to that of Irons response (without his extra-biblical quotes).  In "reading between the lines", we might assume that A&E begat many children previous to the story of Cain and Abel.  And a curious question that one can ponder is why Adam lived only 900 plus years.  If the counting started after his expulsion from Eden, then perhaps he did die the "day" he ate of the forbidden tree.. seeing that a day is as a thousand years to God and vise versa?  Of course, I don't really agree with this understanding that some religions purport, but it is still interesting!?

Anyways, it is assumption to conclude that Cain was the very first seed of A&E.

But to throw in some other thoughts, it is mentioned in the book of Acts that God created out of one blood all the nations.  Paul speaks of the first Adam as earthy and natural, as opposed to anything more special than a Gentile.  Peter says that everyone, including the heavens and earth of old, perished in the flood, except for eight souls.  This brings us to Noah and his family who are called Gentiles in Genesis 10.

The rest of your post I will not now comment on because I think we will get there again.  One of my comments above will eventually take us there after you decide to make some comments/suggestions/questions/whatever.  

Looking forward to hearing from you.

G.

Thank you Cook, for the enlightenment.  I didn't want to do all the homework myself, it gets tiresome, especially when I am trying to answer so many threads.

G.

I received an e-mail asking me to participate more so I will.

I'm a Jew and the title of this tread did catch my attention. I'll admit I thought it a bit offensive, but on the other hand I was proud.

Back to the point: Can the Jews be saved?

My reply (and the reply of most Jews) is "Saved from what?"

Hi, Shalom.  I don't know if you can recall, but I was the one who first directed your attention to this site.  When you first made a response, it was to only one thread, which disappeared now in the archives.  

But, I am glad you returned, and am glad that whomever pressed on you to return, and so am glad you did return.  I am using a different username on this thread than the other where we first met.  You probably don't remember but I do.  I never forget good dialogues.  So, welcome back.  I hope you stay because your insights will become invaluable, even if some disagree, while others will remember!!

So, you thought the title of this thread was "offensive" eh?  And I did admit that it might sound offensive, but my intention was that it was actually not!!

So...you ask a question, and it IS a good one.  What are people "saved from?" and I exclude just the Jews here, I am including the non-Jews too.  What are we all to be saved from?

The notion of an eternal hell is not part of the Jewish faith. In fact the "next world" is not our focus. While it may indeed exist, G-d did not define it in Torah. Therefore our focus is this life - working with G-d to continue creation and bring justice. The idea of dual spiritual power waring against each other (G-d vs. Satan) is not found in Torah and is not taught in Judaism. We hold there to be only one source of power. In other words, what one might consider 'evil' comes from the same source as what one might consider "good". What determines "good" vs. "evil" is G-d's decision. Have you ever experienced something you thought was horrible only to find out it was exactly what you needed to grow emotionally and spiritually?

YES, Absolutly, would be my answer.  But there be some here who would disagree with you.  Does one really think that truth only comes with agreeance?  Iron sharpens iron as the saying goes.

This all raises a good question for the Christian and Muslim: "Would you follow your path if there was no promise of reward or punishment?"

I think the real answer is what is percieved as truth.  IF God is true, then the christian or Muslim or Jew or anyone else should follow the truth found in God regardless if there be promises of an afterlife.  There are scriptures which relate directly to the here and now and how one should treat their fellow man.  I think the rewards only relate to ones heart in any situation.  The heart then determines the care and concern of the person who is to be the object of God's concern?

Judaism is very basic. Our Torah was given by G-d to Israel. It does not apply to the Gentiles. There are 613 commandments in Torah. Gentiles focus only on the 10 - which by the way are not called Commandments in Torah, but "Statements". Nevertheless, even those 10 only apply to Israel - not to the world. G-d never tol Israel to inforce the laws of Torah on the Gentiles. When Gentiles live with us, they are to observe some of the laws. Otherwise, the laws apply only to us. I must admit however it would make for a good environment if everyone followed at least the 10 Statements.

Oh, man alive...this is loaded so I won't respond to this right now.  But I am glad you have come back Shalom.  Welcome...and I hope you stick around.

G.

Peace,
(I'm a hippie at heart - forgive me for the change in spelling -peace sounds cool)

I truly believe we have more in common than not - and that the best way to avoid prejudice is to keep open communication.

I Love communication!

A few questions:
You say it would be nice if everyone kept at least 10:

I must admit however it would make for a good environment if everyone followed at least the 10 Statements.

It is my understanding that Geniltes are not permitted to keep all 10 (613).  I know that not all 613 can be kept at this time,nor ever, by even a jew. But that's a deeper subject. The 10 include shabbat, which is forbidden to a gentile. But I love to keep it anyway.

Aren't gentiles obligated by only the 7 Noachian laws?

And.... How do you see the first command - To Love the Lord with all ones heart, soul and strength?

Is it fulfilled in obedience alone? I think it can not be. I obey many I do not love. But on the other hand, one can't love and not desire to obey?

So how do you see it.? What does the first command mean?


cook