Topic: Will G-d "SAVE" the stiffnecked Jew? (Read 9986 times)

Zagzagel · « **Reply #40 on:** February 07, 2006, 09:24:47 PM »

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There are only three commandments that a Jew must choose death before breaking: Idolotry, Murder, and Sexual immorality. In other words, we are to 'live by Torah, not die from it." Shabbat observance is not something to die over. Loosing one's job could not only affect the individual but their family as well. One should not be selfish in their observance of any commandment - Jew or Christian (my opinion).

Okay. Then I don't understand why some "christian" haters continually attack the words of the NT Christ who healed on the Shabbat. Maybe you have heard of those arguements too? What is you undertanding? You seem thoughtful and truthful and I am looking forward to your answer.

The SDA group is not really that important to our discussion. They are not Jews but you are...so I want to rather know your pov. One day, we can come back and discuss these other things, but, if your choice is that we discuss these other things now, then we can do that too.

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Loosing one's job could not only affect the individual but their family as well. One should not be selfish in their observance of any commandment - Jew or Christian (my opinion).

That is a very excellent point. We can then come back to this later on...and MIGHT be important to why Yeshu said some of the things He said..but more on that later on?

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This reminds me of a something I find interesting. In Acts Chapter 15, the 12 Apostles determined what was required of Gentile believers in Jesus. Sabbath and certainly circumcision (the central issue) were not included.

Well, that depends on what party lines of thought you have heard and agreed with. The text, imo, does NOT agree with your anylysis. But I agree that the whole text is indeed interesting. Mind you, there is an interesting word in that whole text that I find that many won't comment on, and it is the word used, which is "seems". Just another thought to get you to read it over again.

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But two of their instructions dealt with abstaining from blood - which is clearly a Kosher law from Torah. It is specifically mentioned by name and is implied by the instruction to not eat anything that was strangled (which means the blood is not removed). Why is it that you don't hear much about this in the Christian community? I'm puzzled - Christians seem eager to take on Commandments from Torah that don't apply to them, yet seem to overlook this particular commandment given specifically to them by their early church leaders.

I understand. Later on, Paul the Apostle even says something much more confusing. Better to concentrate on this Acts passage for now. Our views will clash only because you have the Jewish undestanding and I/we have the so called "christian" understanding.

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I'd say that any Christian who wishes to be faithful to their beliefs should at least observe commandments that are specific to them (i.e. Acts 15). Arguing over what day to observe as a day of rest should be last thing to fret over

There SHOULD NOT be ANY day for this "rest" for the "christian". Yet many do think this is future. So, there will be some factions, as there is with any group...who try to come to the best understanding. The NT writings do show that there is this rest and it is found in the Yeshu of the NT writings for all. But this is based on the writing and proclamation of Jewish folks...not goys.

G.

shalom · « **Reply #41 on:** February 08, 2006, 06:41:31 AM »

Quote from: geegee

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Okay. Then I don't understand why some "christian" haters continually attack the words of the NT Christ who healed on the Shabbat. Maybe you have heard of those arguements too? What is you undertanding? You seem thoughtful and truthful and I am looking forward to your answer.

Honestly, I am very skeptical of the 'spin' of the Christian Scriptures as it realates to the 1st century Jewish authorities and what seems to be their pension for execution at the slightest offence. G-d gave Israel the command to interpret Torah and pass judgement by 'concensus'. Therefore our history (like the US Courts) have varied over time. And for centuries before the time of Jesus, executions were very rare.

It was not so easy to condemn one to death by Jewish courts in the 1st century. Before one could be executed, there had to be at least two witnesses who saw the act. Secondly, it had to be demonstrated that the individual was warned that their actions were in violation of Torah. Even then, it was up to the courts to determine punishment. During the time of Jesus, the leaders were very reulctant to execute. We know this from the Mishnah (Talmud). It is said by one leader that if Israel executed one person in 7 years, G-d would consider theirs a "blood thirsty generation". Another sage is quoted as saying that the time should be extended to 70 years. Simon Ben Gamaliel is quoted saying (paraphrase) " had they (he and his contemporaries) had been in the Sanhedren there would have been no execution. Therefore, I stronly suggest that the words in the Christian Scriptures were written by those who wished to 'spin' the idea that the Jewish Court was blood thirsty. There is no support for that position outside of the Christian texts.

With regard to my comment - I was stating the three commandment that one must die before committing - I was not saying which ones deserved death. That was always up to the courts to interpret.

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That is a very excellent point. We can then come back to this later on...and MIGHT be important to why Yeshu said some of the things He said..but more on that later on?

Most of what Jesus is recorded as having said is very similiar to the sayings of Hillel (who was a few decades before Jesus, and was a g-grandfather of Simon Ben Gamaliel). The story of the prodigal son for example pre-dates the Christian Scriptures. Hillel taught in the north of Israel - where Jesus was reported to have grown up. He approached the "spirit" of Torah - like I think Jesus did. Shammai was the opponent of Hille and lived in the south. I am of the opinion that when Jesus was criticizing the leaders, he was arguing against Shammai and taking sides with Hillel. Therefore, I agree with the teachings of Jesus regarding the "spirit" vs. the "facts" of Torah. Hillel one more than 300 arguments against Shammai and set the stage for the position of Judaism today.

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There SHOULD NOT be ANY day for this "rest" for the "christian". Yet many do think this is future. So, there will be some factions, as there is with any group...who try to come to the best understanding. The NT writings do show that there is this rest and it is found in the Yeshu of the NT writings for all. But this is based on the writing and proclamation of Jewish folks...not goys.

Speaking as a human being to another, you need to take time out from your week to attend to yourself, and your family. If you are a Jew, the rest is prescribed. If not, then go fishing, or spend time with family. Did you know that in Israel there is only 1 day off from work? We are luck in the US that the Christians adopted Sunday. That gives us Jews two days - and the 2nd is the best time to go shopping! <grin>.

Shalom

Cook · « **Reply #42 on:** February 09, 2006, 04:03:34 PM »

Zagzagel · « **Reply #43 on:** February 09, 2006, 05:03:52 PM »

Concerning your one question, Cook, I think that Shalom is neither, but the other...perhaps conservative?

Just a memory quess.

G.

shalom · « **Reply #44 on:** February 09, 2006, 07:44:07 PM »

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Shalom,

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You are correct. I called it a command because my kjv translation of Deuteronomy 6:1-6 calls it a "command". Never the less it seems Israel was told to love the Lord with all..... Do you think that obedience fulfills the call to love with ALL?

That particular verse in Hebrew notes a doubling of letters for the word Heart. Over the centuries our sages have interpreted the doubling to mean that we are to "love" G-d with both impulses. I'll leave you to ponder what that means. It has always been an intriguing concept to me.

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So that I can keep things straight.. are you Orthodox or Reform? I have been specifically told by the Orthodox that a gentile is forbidden to keep the shabbat in the same way that a Jewish person does. My Reform friends (they hate me now) however seemed unaware of the prohibition.

I've been a member of all types of congregations except Reconstructionist. My membership has been based upon what was availible in the town I lived in a the time and how close to my house the synagogue - or Temple was located. My observance would be considered 'convervative'. Would you believe - if work plans hold true - this Pesach I'll be in Bangkok Thailand. I'll be attending a Seder at a Chabad House (guys in black). They could care less what I label myself - I'm a Jew. That's all that matters to them and to me too.

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Again, it is my understanding, from the Orthodox, that it is only allowable to break a commandment to save the life of a Jew. Because by saving the Jew - more mitzvoth will be done in the long run. This is not true of a gentile - so one can't break the law to save him. It that true? How do you know? I want to believe that it does not matter if the life at risk is Jewish or Gentile.

I don't know of any Jew that considers a Gentile (Stranger) less than himself. Torah is very specific about how we treat a stranger - for we were once strangers in Egypt. Political pressure and persecution has led many to be hostile. That does not make it right, nor do I believe that is how G-d intends Israel to live - as a light to the nations. I also respect that individuals can only take so much pain before they want to lash out. For that I am sorry. I am also thankful that I have not been subject to such pain that I loose my balance.

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I am also told by the Orthodox that a Christian is NOT a "righteous" gentile and therefore will have no part in the world to come.

True or false?

On one hand I consider the statement true. On the other, maybe not. Israel was commanded to not make an image of G-d. The deification of a human as G-d falls into the same category. That said, the commandment to not make an image was given to Israel - Gentiles can make whatever they want. However if they consider that image G-d, then they are guilty of idoloty (Noahide law). So who is to say what is in the heart of the Christian? Not me. But for me - to consider the man Jesus as G-d would be idolotry. For you? well, your not Jew, and I'm not your judge. And if memory serves me correctly, there are a number of Christian scriptures that could be used to support the idea that Jesus didn't claim to be G-d. Others interpret other verses to say he did claim to be G-d. The two verses that comes to mind is "I and the father are one". But the same concept is used when he said "I pray Father that they be one, even as we are one." If the "one" is the same; a trinity is 3 - what is 14? (Jesus + the Father + the 12)? I don't mean to debate these verses. I'm just explaining how I read them and in some way, hope Jesus was not committing idolotry. So many of the quotes attributed to him are very powerful and conform to good Jewish teaching about life and our relationship to G-d.

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Please clarify yourself. You are taking about Jews judging a Jew. Not a Jewish/Noachide court Judging a noachide. The only form of punishment allowed for a noachide breaking one of his/her obligations is death. And one can be condemned on the testimony of one witness.

Am I wrong? How so?

My point being this : If you are talking to us gentile Christians about what we should or shouldn't do - talk to us in terms of the laws and punishments that apply to us. We cannot use your history in any way that is beneficial for us to understand what you think should or will apply to us.

Allow me to re-state the thought: Abraham was the first person to understand "Ethical Monotheism" that is: there is One G-d and our relationship with G-d is directly connect to our relationship with others, and all of creation. Western Civilization developed and continues to interpret laws that are understood (and even rejected) in the context of this relationship. Still "Ethical Monotheism" is the foundation.

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Well the problem seems to extend just as far into Judaism as it does Christianity. My family keeps kosher. My husbands Jewish family eats pork! Their orthodox parents would be ashamed. Go figure.

Yup - I can't comment too much We all have family who amaze us.

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Obedience for health purposes is NOT obedience. And I wouldn't encourage it. If one chooses to obey it should be for the sake of obedience alone. I obey my Lord because I adore him. My obedience brings him pleasure and therefore it is an honor. Being a female, I have few commands to obey - but still the point is the same.

I was simply trying to say that avoiding a bloody steak will not kill you. And after hearing the reports today, avoiding fatty foods will not keep you from cancer - so ok, enjoy your blood. But the Christian scriptures says not to. That was my point/question.

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Well, we are still not in the garden of paradise - so apparently something happened. Even Judaism expects a return to this state. No?

Well some Jews believe in a future Garden (but they can't describe it) and some believe in nothing after death. Both are challenged to be righteous in this life. And all I'm saying is just because we can't prove anything beyond tomorrow, we should focus just on today.

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What about speaking as one familar with what Judaism teaches. Will the messiah allow Christians to rest on sunday during the messanic era? Does Judaism teach that gentiles resting on sunday is good? Somehow I think they would not see it as you do. Again if I'm wrong - I'd love to be. Show me.

I have no desire to be right - only to know the facts.

Well you pose a conundrum - there is no 'official' teaching of Judaism. It may be an old joke, but "2 Jews = 3 Opinions". "2 Jews = 3 Synagogues; one for each and one neither will set foot in."

Since neither of us have 'been on the other side", I'm not about to suggest I know the Facts. But I support you in your opinions and thank you for the good dialogue.

Peace to you too!

Shalom

Cook · « **Reply #45 on:** February 13, 2006, 02:28:52 PM »

Shalom,

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That particular verse in Hebrew notes a doubling of letters for the word Heart. Over the centuries our sages have interpreted the doubling to mean that we are to "love" G-d with both impulses. I'll leave you to ponder what that means. It has always been an intriguing concept to me.

I have set in many Torah classes in the local Temple. I don't think I've heard the above before.
Maybe, sometimes we do not hear what we are not looking for. Now that I'm looking, it's a different story.

To love God with both impulses. That is interesting. Do you think it is possible to be too obsessed with God? Is there a wrong way to love Him?

shalom · « **Reply #46 on:** February 13, 2006, 03:29:06 PM »

Quote from: Cook

To love God with both impulses. That is interesting. Do you think it is possible to be too obsessed with God? Is there a wrong way to love Him?

If would be wrong for me to go sit on a hill and meditate my life away pondering G-d, my navel and debating if Adam and Eve had one themselves.

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Main stream Christianity is clear that Jesus did claim to be God. Christian's are required to believe that He is God. I'm not debating. I'm just letting you know what main line Christianity believes.

Yes I am aware of that teaching.

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u and I had a bit of a problem in another thread with me telling you what Judaism teaches.
I accepted your correction.
So from now on, you tell me what Judaism believes, and I'll tell you what Christians believe.
Fair enough?

I only feel comfortable freely sharing my position. If I do share the position of another Jew, I'll do my best to give reference. I believe I am well versed in the teachings of Christianity. I have had formal education (graduate level) in Christian Church History and Theology. As I said in a previous post, I made it my challenge to understand as much as I could about Christianity. There was even a time when I thought of obtaining a Doctorate in Christian Studies - I still might once I retire. I figured that since I live in a Christian country, I better know what Christianity is all about. Some Orthodox Jews have insisted that studying other faiths violates Torah. I say it all depends on the motive. Mine was not out of curiosity, nor doubt about my own calling. It was more out of defense. Later I found I enjoyed history, so the study of Christianity became a component of my general interest in the past.

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What does Judaism say about Christians believing that God became a man and died to atone for the sins of mankind? During the messianic era what if anything will happen to Christians who choose to maintain such a belief, and act on that belief through worshiping in homes and churches and holiday observance? Will the messiah and other Jews ignore this?

Jesus is not part of Judaism - therefore there is no implied need to address the Christian faith. In major cities or when there is a collective effort on the part of the Christians to "evangelize" the Jews, Many congregations will hold counter-missionary sessions. Not to criticize Christianity, but to equip the Jews with reasons as to why we don't interpret our scriptures the way Christians do. Sort of like a crash course in Jewish Apologetics. I've taught at some of these sessions in the past and have always made it a point to instruct the Jew to respect the Christian and their faith. To never insinuate that the Christian is wrong in their faith - but to respond intellegently with their reasons for their own convictions. I remind them that to the Christian, at that moment of dialogue, they represent the entire people of Israel. All Jews are counting on them to represent us well. To the other point: Torah does say that a man must attone for his own sin.- no one can die for another (Deut 24:16). As for what happens to Christians when messiah comes? I suppose the same as what will happen to the athiests, buddist, muslim, hindu, pagan, native american etc. who lived a righteous life. Again, Torah is very short on describing the next life.

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Well - I know it may seem like semantics but Christians do not believe in the deification of Jesus. We believe in the deity of Jesus. Here is the difference: Jesus did not become God or a God. God became a man. Seems silly - but it is a bit different.

Either concept would be wrong for me to entertain.

Shalom

shalom · « **Reply #47 on:** February 13, 2006, 05:53:42 PM »

Quote from: shalom

Quote from: Cook

To love God with both impulses. That is interesting. Do you think it is possible to be too obsessed with God? Is there a wrong way to love Him?

If would be wrong for me to go sit on a hill and meditate my life away pondering G-d, my navel and debating if Adam and Eve each had one themselves.

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Main stream Christianity is clear that Jesus did claim to be God. Christian's are required to believe that He is God. I'm not debating. I'm just letting you know what main line Christianity believes.

Yes I am aware of that teaching.

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u and I had a bit of a problem in another thread with me telling you what Judaism teaches.
I accepted your correction.
So from now on, you tell me what Judaism believes, and I'll tell you what Christians believe.
Fair enough?

I only feel comfortable freely sharing my position. If I do share the position of another Jew, I'll do my best to give reference. I believe I am already well versed in the teachings of Christianity - in particular, the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Ethiopian and Coptic denominations and those that sprang from them. I have had formal education (graduate level) in Christian Church History and Christian Theology. As I said in a previous post, I made it my challenge to understand as much as I could about Christianity. There was even a time when I thought of obtaining a Doctorate in Christian Studies - I still might once I retire. I figured that since I live in a Christian country, I better know what Christianity is all about. Some Orthodox Jews have insisted that studying other faiths violates Torah. I say it all depends on the motive. Mine was not out of curiosity, nor doubt about my own calling. It was more out of defense. And it may have been youthful pride. At the time I knew of no Jew who had such a degree. Since then a few have risen from amongst the tribe. Today, the study of Christianity is a component of my general interest in the studing the past. I also, by default, get a good look at the relationship between these Christian groups and the Jewish communities that lived in their territories.

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What does Judaism say about Christians believing that God became a man and died to atone for the sins of mankind? During the messianic era what if anything will happen to Christians who choose to maintain such a belief, and act on that belief through worshiping in homes and churches and holiday observance? Will the messiah and other Jews ignore this?

Jesus is not part of Judaism - therefore there is no implied need to address the Christian faith. Sometimes, when there is a collective effort on the part of certain Christians to specifically "evangelize" the Jews, some congregations will hold counter-missionary sessions. The purpose is not to criticize Christianity, but to equip the Jews - especially the young Jews with reasons as to why Jews hold to the convictions we do. And to enable them to answer the Christian "proof texts". Sort of like a crash course in Jewish Apologetics. I've taught at some of these sessions in the past and have always made it a point to instruct the Jews to respect the Christian and their faith. To never insinuate that the Christian is wrong in their faith - but to respond intellegently and kindly with their reasons for their own convictions - and in their own words. Nothing is more easily disputed than 'wrote answers'. I also remind them that at that moment, they represent the entire people of Israel. And that they could very well be the first and possibly ONLY Jew the Christian may ever meet 1 on 1. To the other point: Torah does say that a man must attone for his own sin.- no one can die for another (Deut 24:16). As for what happens to Christians when messiah comes? I suppose the same as what will happen to the athiests, buddist, muslim, hindu, pagan, native american etc. who lived a righteous life. Again, Torah is very short on describing the next life.

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Well - I know it may seem like semantics but Christians do not believe in the deification of Jesus. We believe in the deity of Jesus. Here is the difference: Jesus did not become God or a God. God became a man. Seems silly - but it is a bit different.

Either concept would be wrong for me to entertain.

Shalom

Zagzagel · « **Reply #48 on:** February 18, 2006, 05:11:17 PM »

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It is said by one leader that if Israel executed one person in 7 years, G-d would consider theirs a "blood thirsty generation". Another sage is quoted as saying that the time should be extended to 70 years. Simon Ben Gamaliel is quoted saying (paraphrase) " had they (he and his contemporaries) had been in the Sanhedren there would have been no execution. Therefore, I stronly suggest that the words in the Christian Scriptures were written by those who wished to 'spin' the idea that the Jewish Court was blood thirsty. There is no support for that position outside of the Christian texts.

Actually, I am not quite sure how to answer this. One conversation I had with another who was more informed than I became quite interesting. What I mean is, there was once a thread in which there was discussion of why the covenant people of God were again judged in 70 Ad. It was mentioned that perhaps they did not follow Torah enough in some of these areas? I don't know. But this led me to thinking something....

IF the NT writings are true in regard to history, what do you make of the execution of Yeshu? Was it by Torah standards?

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Most of what Jesus is recorded as having said is very similiar to the sayings of Hillel (who was a few decades before Jesus, and was a g-grandfather of Simon Ben Gamaliel). The story of the prodigal son for example pre-dates the Christian Scriptures. Hillel taught in the north of Israel - where Jesus was reported to have grown up. He approached the "spirit" of Torah - like I think Jesus did. Shammai was the opponent of Hille and lived in the south. I am of the opinion that when Jesus was criticizing the leaders, he was arguing against Shammai and taking sides with Hillel. Therefore, I agree with the teachings of Jesus regarding the "spirit" vs. the "facts" of Torah. Hillel one more than 300 arguments against Shammai and set the stage for the position of Judaism today.

That is interesting. I think that many christians, even athiests or skeptics, have some hard time sorting out scripture because they lose sight of whom the NT writers are quoting from at times. It has also been noticed by more (?) informed writers that Paul even spoke in the spirit of Hillel. Those few (?) scholars recognize that Paul himself was deeply influenced in Hillel and they also suggest that Paul may even have carried documents or writings of Hillel in his travels and missionizing. I think there may be some truth behind it, but further contemplation is needed. But as noted earlier, I recognize that the first christian message was spouted by Jews and how we determine and understand that message may itself spout in many directions and understandings.

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Speaking as a human being to another, you need to take time out from your week to attend to yourself, and your family. If you are a Jew, the rest is prescribed. If not, then go fishing, or spend time with family. Did you know that in Israel there is only 1 day off from work? We are luck in the US that the Christians adopted Sunday. That gives us Jews two days - and the 2nd is the best time to go shopping!

I agree. Time off is much needed. Here in Canada too we are allowed two days a week. Luckily for me, I can book more days off if needed and my employers are more than happy to oblige me. But, concerning this Torah "rest", as a christian, I see it much more differently than a physical rest.

Blessings.

G.

shalom · « **Reply #49 on:** February 19, 2006, 03:36:09 AM »

Quote from: geegee

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It What I mean is, there was once a thread in which there was discussion of why the covenant people of God were again judged in 70 Ad. It was mentioned that perhaps they did not follow Torah enough in some of these areas? I don't know. But this led me to thinking something....

IF the NT writings are true in regard to history, what do you make of the execution of Yeshu? Was it by Torah standards?

As for why the destruction of the temple - who can know G-d's purposes in full? I have often been puzzled as to why, when G-d made his covenant with Abraham He had already determined that the Hebrews would spend time as slaves in Egypt. I'm certain there are many a commentary - but the real reason rests in G-d.

As for the manner in which Jesus was executed - I would say that be Roman. I believe the correct manner at the time for blasphemy was stoning. Which if memory serves me correctly was not having stones thrown, but having stoned piled up on ones chest so they suffocated. Having said that, the story of Stephen seems 'forced' if you will. If Jews could not execute Jesus, then why all of a sudden could they execute Stephen?

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That is interesting. I think that many christians, even athiests or skeptics, have some hard time sorting out scripture because they lose sight of whom the NT writers are quoting from at times. It has also been noticed by more (?) informed writers that Paul even spoke in the spirit of Hillel. Those few (?) scholars recognize that Paul himself was deeply influenced in Hillel and they also suggest that Paul may even have carried documents or writings of Hillel in his travels and missionizing. I think there may be some truth behind it, but further contemplation is needed. But as noted earlier, I recognize that the first christian message was spouted by Jews and how we determine and understand that message may itself spout in many directions and understandings.

Paul claims to have studied under Gamaliel who was the son of Simeon who was the son of Hillel.

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I agree. Time off is much needed. Here in Canada too we are allowed two days a week. Luckily for me, I can book more days off if needed and my employers are more than happy to oblige me. But, concerning this Torah "rest", as a christian, I see it much more differently than a physical rest.

Understood - true Sabbath rest means to rest as G-d rested - meaning no action upon your environment (no creation). You can well imagine how this interpretation has led to some pretty strange customs within certain Jewish communities. The Eruv is perhaps the most bizzare to me. One Rabbinic Law (Oral Law), prohibits the caring of objects from a private place to a public place (i.e. going out and checking your mailbox across the street for example, or a kleenex in your pocket). So what do some Jews do to interpret the law and make life a bit easier? They create what is called an Eruv - they string a cable around the entire community (i.e. 12 city blocks if necessary) and decree the entire area 'private'. On Friday afternoon, someone checks the cable to ensure there are no breaks. In Atlanta for example, Jews can call an Eruv Hot-Line and hear a message that says the Eruv has been checked and is Kosher for Sabbath. The funny thing is, is that this is quite permissible as we (Jews) are to interpret Torah as a community. Within one city there maybe more than one community - so some Jews accept the notion of Eruv and others, in different communities do not. As I said it leads to some very bizzare conclusions. I'm digressing, but thought you might be interested in that bit of trivia.

Shalom

Zagzagel · « **Reply #50 on:** February 22, 2006, 09:08:45 PM »

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As for the manner in which Jesus was executed - I would say that be Roman. I believe the correct manner at the time for blasphemy was stoning. Which if memory serves me correctly was not having stones thrown, but having stoned piled up on ones chest so they suffocated. Having said that, the story of Stephen seems 'forced' if you will. If Jews could not execute Jesus, then why all of a sudden could they execute Stephen?

Yes. That is exactly the illustration that I had in mind. We were not there, and so every detail and question may not be able to be answered.

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As for why the destruction of the temple - who can know G-d's purposes in full? I have often been puzzled as to why, when G-d made his covenant with Abraham He had already determined that the Hebrews would spend time as slaves in Egypt. I'm certain there are many a commentary - but the real reason rests in G-d.

Out of all my studies, I think this has become thee most important question for me. Is there any writing in your scriptures that may have pointed to this time of devestation and how long it was to occur for? The ONLY answer I could find is within the NT writings.

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Paul claims to have studied under Gamaliel who was the son of Simeon who was the son of Hillel.

So, then, does that prove (such a harsh word..lol) my point about Hillel influence in the life of Paul?

End.....

I would like to talk more of this Sabbath rest later on. As noted earlier, I have a goyish answer for it..and might be fun to talk of this in length at the right opportune.

Blessings to you.

G.

shalom · « **Reply #51 on:** February 23, 2006, 06:42:12 AM »

Quote from: geegee

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Out of all my studies, I think this has become thee most important question for me. Is there any writing in your scriptures that may have pointed to this time of devestation and how long it was to occur for? The ONLY answer I could find is within the NT writings.

The most obvious scriptures that I can think of at the moment is the 43rd chapter of Isaiah and 31 chapter of Jeremiah. In Isaiah 43 G-d speaks of calling back Israel. That coupled with the 31st Chapter of Jeremiah indicates that Israel (both houses) were scattered, and then called back. While those verses do not speak to the destruction of the 2nd temple, they do infer that Israel would be booted out of the land in order to be recalled and united again. I know Christians use both of these chapters (in fact, I think Christians use mose of our scriptures) as reference to themselves. However I see our scriptures being only for us - except in the case where is speaks of the Nations (Goyim). Finally, I've heard some who say Isaiah 66:8 applies to the formation of the state of Israel by the UN in 1948. I'm not sure however if that prophecy has fully been completed. Israel calls itself a "state". It will not call itself a 'Nation" until all the land is returned to the Jews.

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So, then, does that prove (such a harsh word..lol) my point about Hillel influence in the life of Paul?

I think any male Jew at the time was affected by both Hillel and Shammai. But Paul's words do not mirror the style, nor the temperment of Hillel. The quotes attributed to Jesus do. The use of story-teling (parables) to make a point is called a "Midrash" in Hebrew. There are numerous Midrashim (plural) attribed to the sages - including Hillel. The story of the Prodigal son for example is one. So was the "Golden Rule" - also first spoken by Hillel in our texts and was re-stated in the Christian scriptures as coming from Jesus. And it certainly could have been said by Jesus in that manner - or close to that manner. Re-telling Midrashim is how teaching was performed. My point is that Jesus' words were nothing new - they were re-telling what he had learned from synagogue. And in his part of the country, the teachings were from Beit Hillel (the school of Hillel).

The original "Golden Rule", as recoded in Jewish text went something like this:

A Gentile went to Shammai asking "explain to me Torah while standing on one foot." Shammai took a stick and beat the man away with anger. The man then went to Hillel and asked the same thing. Hillel replied "What is harmfull to you, do not do to another. The rest of Torah is commentary. Now - go study the commentary."

Shalom

Zagzagel · « **Reply #52 on:** February 28, 2006, 07:48:19 PM »

Really, now, Shalom. I appreciate your thoughts here but I do not want to hear you quotes of the "christian missionary". I already know those thoughts. You are not really giving me anything new. Especially when it comes to the future dealings of Isreal.

G.

shalom · « **Reply #53 on:** March 02, 2006, 06:45:01 PM »

Quote from: geegee

Really, now, Shalom. I appreciate your thoughts here but I do not want to hear you quotes of the "christian missionary". I already know those thoughts. You are not really giving me anything new. Especially when it comes to the future dealings of Isreal.

G.

Quote from: geegee

Really, now, Shalom. I appreciate your thoughts here but I do not want to hear you quotes of the "christian missionary". I already know those thoughts. You are not really giving me anything new. Especially when it comes to the future dealings of Isreal.

G.

GeeGee,

I just saw this post (above) and hunted back to see where I quoted Christian missionaries. I don't see it in my immediate post above yours. I did say I've heard many Christians use the Hebrew Scriptures to apply to the Body of Christ (the Church).

In any event, I feel that I didn't answer your question or address your comment. Please read the thread and alert me to where I misundersood or fell short on responding to the issue presented.

Best to you,
Shalom

shalom · « **Reply #54 on:** March 05, 2006, 06:45:59 AM »

To GeeGee,

A week ago I attended a Christian Jewish inter-faith conference. It was held at one of those "Baptist Mega-Churches" (seats a few thousand). The guest speaker Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein (http://www.ifcj.org) said "Most Jews only know that part of Christian History that Christians avoid or have forgotten." He then added "Jews gave the Christians their L-rd." He then quoted Paul's comments about being grafted-in and how important Paul said it was not to reject the root for without it, the branch can not live. (I'm paraphrasing). He then brought up an interesting point: the USA has become an equal target of terrorism as Israel. In other words, when the Muslim extremists seek to destroy Israel, America is an equal target. I don't know for sure, but I would suspect he would say the same if he were speaking in a Christian Church in Europe or Australia (just a guess). My point is Christianity on the whole supports Israel - for a variety of reasons perhaps. And that comes with a price.

That's the background. Here's my question for you:

* Do you think Christians have a "love / hate" relationship with the Jews?

Thank you again for your inspiring posts and taking time to dialogue.

Shalom

Cook · « **Reply #55 on:** March 06, 2006, 12:04:53 PM »

Gee Gee and Shalom,

There is a Jewish man in Israel, named Yair Davidy, who works with an Orthodox Rabbi on finding the Lost Tribes.

He feels that America and Christians share the fate of Israel because they are of Joseph. He aslo explains the so called "love hate relationship" between Jews and Christians as fulfilling the prophecy about Ephriam and Judah. Basically with the West being made up of Ephriam and modern Israel being made up of Judah.

His org. is called Brit-Am, and is kind of a Jewish spin on British Israelism. But Yair's is not racial where as British Israelism, as I recall, is a racist idea.

Yair has interesting ideas.

cook

shalom · « **Reply #56 on:** March 06, 2006, 04:43:25 PM »

Quote from: Cook

Gee Gee and Shalom, There is a Jewish man in Israel, named Yair Davidy, who works with an Orthodox Rabbi on finding the Lost Tribes. Yair has interesting ideas.

He certainly does have interesting ideas. Is he right? We may never know in our lifetime.

What motivates a Gentile to consider themselves part of the 10 northern tribes is a study in itself. I'm intrigued by the motive more than I am the facts.

Thanks for the link. It is a good read.

Shalom

Zagzagel · « **Reply #57 on:** March 07, 2006, 07:48:25 PM »

I apologize for my delay.

I agree with Cook. I would absolutely disagree with the British-Israeli doctrines. I have yet to take a look at that one link that Cook pointed too. But...

Shalom asked:

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* Do you think Christians have a "love / hate" relationship with the Jews?

Yes..absolutely. I think the scales actually lean towards the "hate" part more than the "love" part, though. That is my honest answer. I for one love Jews and all non-Jews. I think that Gods plan included both since the beginning of time before there were Jews to speak of. There is depth, height, width to the wisdom of God in HIS ways.

Quote

Thank you again for your inspiring posts and taking time to dialogue.

Well, thank you. It is hard for me to get such a compliment. You have a heart of gold!!

Peace to you.

G.

shalom · « **Reply #58 on:** March 07, 2006, 08:24:41 PM »

Quote from: geegee

Well, thank you. It is hard for me to get such a compliment. You have a heart of gold/

Honestly, I don't know enough to say who is or is not part of the Lost Tribes of Israel. But I do tend to shy away from those who make it political. On that point I believe Cook, you and I agree.

Your kind words humble me as well. I am a 'talker' by nature, and over the past few years I've tried to say everything I wanted to say in as few a words as possible. The following phrase came to me as I was reading all the new postings made today:

"Respect is more Precious than Persuasion."

Shalom

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